[Spoilers] Death and reincarnation

[QT_Melon]

Ah, in that case, I think we should use the analogy that primals are essentially computer programs. They don't do what they aren't programmed to. And the only way to 'reprogram' Zodiark was to sacrifice some lives to him as a source of energy. He didn't DEMAND it, but it was the only way for the Ancients to get Him to do what they wanted Him to do. In which case, blame the designer and we can all see it boils down to #blameLahabrea.

There's also the fact that when people are saying "summoned" in the sense of requiring specific acts from said Primal not just demanding "appearance" So in the case of Zodiark he was "summoned" for an act that required aether.

So yes I would also think of Primals closer to "AI" programs. They're based off thoughtform which is why primals aren't alway the exact vision of what they're supposed to represent but what is BELIEVED to be represented. Will of the star made manifest isn't them summoning the actual Will of the Star but their belief of which. So I don't exactly buy the theory that Zodiark and Hydaelyn predates their actual summoning. I can see primals as a sort of "wish corruption genie" but in the case of Hydaelyn they got around a "3rd wish" (using the wish analogy often told in magic lamp mythos) by wishing for more wishes. To elaborate in the case of avoiding being tempered (using our third wish) she tempered us with free will via her "hear feel think" that was probably instilled in her summoning (the wishing for more wishes). I'm still curious as to her odd speech patterns - besides being a weird AI/primal with phrases like "all made".

[Iscah]

It's all interesting, really. I also wonder about Minfilia. We know that she's continually re-born - but she is most certainly a follower, or creation of Hydaelyn and not Zodiark. Is Minfilia the closest thing we have to a 'light Ascian'?

She specifically says (I think when talking to Thancred) that she is like an Ascian now.

Even before that, from some things she said during the WoD arc it seemed she had become an 'anti-Ascian', Hydaelyn's emissary in direct opposition to Elidibus.

Although maybe only step 1 was decided, and the 14th member left simply b/c of the whole "summoning a primal who will probably temper us" thing. And then only *acted* against the others when they went from voluntarily subjugating themselves to threatening innocent life.

I'm not sure whether they were familiar with how primals worked at that point. Emet-Selch describes Zodiark and Hydaelyn as the "eldest and most powerful" of primals, implying that they hadn't created anything like them before. They were experimenting with GFs, but if they're all like the Quetzalcoatl summoning we saw, perhaps there's some different aspect to the single-person and/or self-sacrificing nature of those beings that doesn't cause them to temper others. (Which, I realise as I write it, could also apply to Hydaelyn...?)

So it's possible that the fourteenth member left on a more general "this is a bad idea and I'm not having any part of it" reasoning. Or perhaps even then, they had ideas about what safeguards needed to be put in place to keep Zodiark's power in check and ensure their created 'saviour' wasn't itself actually dangerous, and the others refused to listen. (I'm picturing something in the realm of Asimov's Three Laws of Robotics, or whatever analogous rules you'd need to make for a god with the power to reshape the laws of reality.)

Not only did the WoL manage to rise, but they were able to channel heretofore unseen amounts of aether into a densely packed axe-shaped construct which was then capable of utterly destroying Emet-Selch. Their miniature rejoining even rid the WoL of the damage done to their soul by carrying that horror show around inside them all that time. This shows a clear increase in aether containment, management, and control capabilities as opposed to before they became one.

While the amount of aether they're dealing with might be larger, the actual act is very similar to the final (still-skippable) cutscene in the Praetorium where we summon a weapon of light to smite Lahabrea and free Thancred.

Okay now here's the thing, why does everyone assume he was 'summoned' twice instead of just persisting after being summoned the first time until he was sundered by Hydaelyn?

This doesn't read to me like he was summoned twice, but was there already, and they just gave their lives up as fuel for his powers, like modern primals would consume crystals to sustain themselves.

I hadn't even realised people could interpret it as two separate summonings! It clearly reads as only one to me.

Zodiark was born of the first sacrifice, halted the cataclysm, then there's no mention of needing to re-summon Him. The second sacrifice is to give up their energy to be used to recreate the world, rather than for the summoning itself.

Also, if Zodiark was 'dismissed' after the first summoning then it would suggest He would be dismissed again after the second. Instead He is still present, and Hydaelyn created to oppose Him, by the point where they are talking about what to do next.

Nothing we've seen up until this point suggests that he started demanding sacrifices in exchange for the tasks that were given to him.

I don't think I've seen anyone else (certainly in this thread at least) say that Zodiark was demanding sacrifices. It is nevertheless fact that sacrifices were being made to Him, however willingly and regardless of who was instigating the plan.

It's at least as likely that it was the idea of the Convocation, which is how most people here seem to be describing it.

[LineageRazor]

As far as the dialog goes - https://pastebin.com/ffXVNJsM In answering what's going on with the sundered Ascians.

I tihnk I somehow missed that last one! That said, it didn't tell me much I hadn't already guessed, and still leaves room for a lot of questions. Soul fragments from the original Convocation make "better" Ascians - but why? Is it because they're Tempered? Because their memories can be restored, and they're naturally on board with Plan Zodiark (since they were originally)? How much choice to the Big Three give these fragmented Ascians in joining the cause - and has any ever tried to say "No, I have a husband and children, and I want no part of this!"?

I don't think I've seen anyone else (certainly in this thread at least) say that Zodiark was demanding sacrifices. It is nevertheless fact that sacrifices were being made to Him, however willingly and regardless of who was instigating the plan.

It's at least as likely that it was the idea of the Convocation, which is how most people here seem to be describing it.

Indeed, it seems to be the overwhelming opinion of posters on this forum that Zodiark is likely NOT evil, but simply doing what he was tasked to do. If there's any evil involved, it would be on the part of the Convocation of Thirteen, when they decided to sacrifice the New Life to revive the Old - the first time that sacrifices were involved that were not VOLUNTARY. And even that is only debatably evil; the Convocation didn't consider this new life to be "true" life, and it's unclear whether any of the new life forms were intelligent creatures.

Right now, the general feel of discussion is that Zodiark is not necessarily evil, even if the things he was designed to do might be considered so. As for Hydaelyn, most consider her to still be good - but she, too, was created to perform certain tasks, and some of those tasks may have been kind of horrible. Given that Zodiark was also created to do horrible things for good intentions, the two of them may be more alike than we think...

[Alleluia]

For the record, I currently do think Zodiark's evil. Mainly for the 3rd sacrifice plan. I think we've seen enough to know that sacrificing others' aether to bring back a dead person never works out how the summoner intends. And yet that's the ultimate goal and motivation behind the rejoining and its associated atrocities: to get Zodiark whole again so he can be fed that aether and bring back the dead Amaurotines. But, as I said, even if he was whole, everything we have ever seen tells us that the plan won't work. Zodiark would know his own capabilities, but he's not dissuaded the Ascians in the least. Why? B/c the plan feeds him aether and that's what he's interested in.

Zodiark is not Ramuh or Titan, simply interested in protecting his charges and being otherwise passive in nature. He covets power, exactly how Hydaelyn described him, and he's leading the surviving ancients around by the nose with false hopes for his own gain. And they'd see it, too, if they weren't tempered.

[Absimiliard]

For the record, I think Zodiark's evil, mainly for the 3rd sacrifice plan. I think we've seen enough to know that sacrificing others' aether to bring back a dead person never works out how the summoner intends. And yet that's the ultimate goal and motivation behind the rejoining and its associated atrocities: to get Zodiark whole again so he can be fed that aether and bring back the dead Amaurotines. But, as I said, even if he was whole, everything we have ever seen tells us that the plan won't work. Zodiark would know his own capabilities, but he's not dissuaded the Ascians in the least. Why? B/c the plan feeds him aether and that's what he's interested in.

Zodiark is not Ramuh or Titan, simply interested in protecting his charges and being otherwise passive in nature. He covets power, exactly how the Word of the Mother described him. And the Ascians would see it, too, if they weren't tempered.

The failed instances of resurrection we've been shown have occurred after the soul had returned to the lifestream. We can't even be sure bringing back the dead won't work in this case since their souls are, at least according to Emet-Selch (and his ability to draw power from them during the fight against him), still completely intact within Zodiark. Zodiark proved capable of creating life seemingly from nothing (but presumably by converting aether into matter the way Ancient creation magics did) to restore a dying world. If he could do all that - even creating new souls in the process, it would seem - then what's to stop him from being able to give fully intact souls new physical bodies to inhabit?

Also, who says Zodiark is the one calling the shots? All we know of him so far is that he does what he is summoned to do. The Ascians imply that he's been completely dormant ever since the sundering, meaning he likely has zero ability to influence their actions. We don't even know for a fact that he stuck around after his second summoning. What we do know is that tempering is not necessarily a voluntary action on the part of primals. Even Ramuh, who opposes the practice, found that he could not prevent it from happening. Zodiark could well have tempered them without actually meaning to.

The Word of the Mother is essentially just Hydaelyn using someone as a mouthpiece. They speak from Hydaelyn's perspective even when she isn't directly controlling them. Anything Hydaelyn or her Word say about Zodiark must be considered suspect due to the obvious bias at play. It doesn't help that Hydaelyn has lied to us several times now, either. Mind you I'm not saying she's evil, but I definitely don't just blindly subscribe to the whole "big good" vibe she tries to present herself as having.

[YianKutku]

What we do know is that tempering is not necessarily a voluntary action on the part of primals. Even Ramuh, who opposes the practice, found that he could not prevent it from happening.

And yet Shiva and Alexander managed not to temper anyone around them, so clearly some amount of control is available.

Zodiark could well have tempered them without actually meaning to.

Tempered them to do what? Everything the Ascians have done involved tremendous death and suffering and chaos, just to prepare the shards and the Source to do their sacrifice to Zodiark. As in, there is no indication that all the deaths and literal world-ending Calamities were part of Zodiark's stated price to bring back the Ancients, but just collateral damage in their efforts to Rejoin the shards to create a proper stage for the real sacrifice.

Judging by the actions of the Ascians, they clearly have to be stopped. And since they themselves credit their motivations to Zodiark, I don't know what else Zodiark might have expected them to do.

[Absimiliard]

And yet Shiva and Alexander managed not to temper anyone around them, so clearly some amount of control is available.

Alexander was contained almost immediately upon being summoned, and Ysayle never actually interacted with anyone she could temper while in her primal form. Truth told we don't even know how her tempering would've worked since she was an actual person transformed into the likeness of a primal through a similar process to summoning.

Tempered them to do what? Everything the Ascians have done involved tremendous death and suffering and chaos, just to prepare the shards and the Source to do their sacrifice to Zodiark. As in, there is no indication that all the deaths and literal world-ending Calamities were part of Zodiark's stated price to bring back the Ancients, but just collateral damage in their efforts to Rejoin the shards to create a proper stage for the real sacrifice.

Tempering does not necessarily come with a set of commands. Most tempered creatures are just blindly, fanatically loyal to the point that they come off as being completely insane. We can again look to Ramuh and for examples of tempered individuals doing things that actually go against of the one responsible for the tempering.

At no point has it been said that Zodiark stated any sort of price for its aid. There is certainly no indication at this time that it wanted sacrifices, only that the Ancients sacrificed themselves to it twice of their own will; once to save the world, once to heal it. The first set of sacrifices were required just to create him, while the second were either needed to summon him again or to replenish enough of his power for him to be able to carry out his task. We know nothing of the circumstances surrounding the third other than that the Ascians believe doing this will bring back their people.


It should also be noted that the rejoining itself will - at least according to the Ascians - have the effect of making their sundered people not inside Zodiark whole again.

Judging by the actions of the Ascians, they clearly have to be stopped. And since they themselves credit their motivations to Zodiark, I don't know what else Zodiark might have expected them to do.

The actions of the Ascians cannot necessarily be blamed on Zodiark itself. For all we know, they might have come up with all of this own their own. Heck, Emet-Selch doesn't even seem to care all that much about Zodiark most of the time other than as a means to bring his people back to life. At this point we just don't have enough information to definitively blame Zodiark for everything.

[LineageRazor]

Alexander was contained almost immediately upon being summoned, and Ysayle never actually interacted with anyone she could temper while in her primal form. Truth told we don't even know how her tempering would've worked since she was an actual person transformed into the likeness of a primal through a similar process to summoning.

Agreed on this; the situations around Alexander and Shiva were unique. Shiva's pretty straightforward: primals temper those that summon them, Ysayle was the sole individual summoning Shiva, and Ysayle was immune to tempering.

Alexander's a bit more wonky; his "summoning ritual" was unusual in that he was summoned into an existing structure, rather than as a completely independent being. It's also entirely possible that the goblins responsible for the Summoning WERE tempered. Our perspective on it all makes it difficult to tell whether they are or not, particularly since Alexander had a big plan going on, and the behavior of the goblins may have been a part of it.

Certainly it's the case that just being around a Primal isn't enough to become tempered. The primal can do it to you anytime it wants, but it doesn't just happen. The tempering that occurs due to the summoning process, though, seems to be involuntary. Additionally, the Sahagin quests show that it's possible to temper individuals without the Primal in question even being present - Leviathan's not around, but the Sahagin are STILL "Drowning" their prisoners to make them Leviathan's thralls.

The involuntary tempering might have been something the Convocation built in on purpose, if one of Zodiark's purposes was to prevent uncontrolled Creation from occurring by directly taking control of individuals capable of it. By tempering themselves as part of the process, it was a gesture of good faith. "We know we're asking a lot, in suggesting that you allow yourselves to be enslaved to the Will of Zodiark. To show our sincerity that this is a necessary step, we will volunteer ourselves first!"

It should also be noted that the rejoining itself will - at least according to the Ascians - have the effect of making their sundered people not inside Zodiark whole again.

Even if they are whole, though, there's no guarantee that they will be their original selves, again. Presumably, there were many Ancient souls that got another piece during the Rejoining that occurred during the Bahamut calamity, but I don't think anyone suddenly started regaining lost Ancient memories, or anything. If the final Rejoining occurred, I think you'd have a lot of whole Ancient souls still inhabiting Rogadyn or Hyur or Sahagin bodies, with none of their Ancient memories restored. Likely Zodiark's intervention will be needed to actually transform these people into the same people they once were.

Loony as he might have been, this could have been what Varis was banking on: Himself, with a whole Ancient soul, now ready to stand toe-to-toe with the Ascians. And how does he know he's one of the few blessed with an Ancient's shattered soul? Plain ol' Garlean arrogance - OF COURSE he's one of the chosen. It would be absurd to assume otherwise!

[Absimiliard]

Alexander's a bit more wonky; his "summoning ritual" was unusual in that he was summoned into an existing structure, rather than as a completely independent being. It's also entirely possible that the goblins responsible for the Summoning WERE tempered. Our perspective on it all makes it difficult to tell whether they are or not, particularly since Alexander had a big plan going on, and the behavior of the goblins may have been a part of it.

I have this sneaking suspicion that goblins wouldn't act any different even if they were tempered. That entire race seems to have a habit of attaching itself to something and beginning to obsess over it to a ludicrous degree. With Alexander basically being a giant robot, the goblins' natural love of machinery would draw them to it anyway.

Certainly it's the case that just being around a Primal isn't enough to become tempered. The primal can do it to you anytime it wants, but it doesn't just happen. The tempering that occurs due to the summoning process, though, seems to be involuntary. Additionally, the Sahagin quests show that it's possible to temper individuals without the Primal in question even being present - Leviathan's not around, but the Sahagin are STILL "Drowning" their prisoners to make them Leviathan's thralls.

It seems that a primal's aether is all that is really required to temper someone. What I want to know is how they're getting Leviathan's aether without him actually physically being present.

The involuntary tempering might have been something the Convocation built in on purpose, if one of Zodiark's purposes was to prevent uncontrolled Creation from occurring by directly taking control of individuals capable of it. By tempering themselves as part of the process, it was a gesture of good faith. "We know we're asking a lot, in suggesting that you allow yourselves to be enslaved to the Will of Zodiark. To show our sincerity that this is a necessary step, we will volunteer ourselves first!"

I could perhaps see this being the case if indeed one of Zodiark's directives were to stifle the use of creation magics. We'll have to wait and see, I suppose. Another possibility is that it wasn't something intentional at all - or if it was, the Convocation may not have meant to temper themselves in the process.

Even if they are whole, though, there's no guarantee that they will be their original selves, again. Presumably, there were many Ancient souls that got another piece during the Rejoining that occurred during the Bahamut calamity, but I don't think anyone suddenly started regaining lost Ancient memories, or anything. If the final Rejoining occurred, I think you'd have a lot of whole Ancient souls still inhabiting Rogadyn or Hyur or Sahagin bodies, with none of their Ancient memories restored. Likely Zodiark's intervention will be needed to actually transform these people into the same people they once were.

Perhaps, perhaps not. I don't imagine it would be difficult for them to reshape their current bodies into duplicates of their originals if indeed their identities are restored. If they don't regain their memories, I'd wager the Ascians won't have to lift a finger anyway. Giving that kind of power to people that don't know or remember how to use it would in all probability lead to devastation on a scale even the Ascians themselves don't want to see. Pretty much all of the Spoken races have a huge number of just barely concealed violent tendencies that, with creation magic, could become a serious issue. We already know from the "Final Days" that uncontrolled creation magic is quite catastrophic.

Loony as he might have been, this could have been what Varis was banking on: Himself, with a whole Ancient soul, now ready to stand toe-to-toe with the Ascians. And how does he know he's one of the few blessed with an Ancient's shattered soul? Plain ol' Garlean arrogance - OF COURSE he's one of the chosen. It would be absurd to assume otherwise!

Excellent observation. I hadn't considered that this particular thing might be Varis's plan. That said, I actually wonder if perhaps the Garlean racial inability to manipulate aether is due to them not being connected to the Ancients. We don't know yet whether or not Zodiark created sapient life during his second act, but if he did, I could certainly see it being the race that would become the Garleans after the sundering. It would certainly explain a lot about their race. They possess truly immense physical and intellectual gifts, but their ability to manipulate aether is simply non-existent outside of a rare few fortunate individuals.

[Alleluia]

Excellent observation. I hadn't considered that this particular thing might be Varis's plan. That said, I actually wonder if perhaps the Garlean racial inability to manipulate aether is due to them not being connected to the Ancients. We don't know yet whether or not Zodiark created sapient life during his second act, but if he did, I could certainly see it being the race that would become the Garleans after the sundering. It would certainly explain a lot about their race. They possess truly immense physical and intellectual gifts, but their ability to manipulate aether is simply non-existent outside of a rare few fortunate individuals.

An interesting idea, but I don't think that we've seen anything to indicate the lifestream plays favorites like that. If ancient soul fragments are just getting reborn constantly throughout the Source, why would they skip an entire race? So far, if the echo is truly an indicator of an ancient soul, it seems that they are reborn into everyone, from lalafell to sahagin.

Maybe Garlean genetics could have some kind of resistance to ancient souls or something...? But I don't know if genetics of a body would impact the soul energy it gets. It would depend on when an unborn child is ensouled I suppose? lol Imagine finding an NPC to have *that* conversation with.