There's not much unique-ness when it comes to tank jobs, are there?

[Ultimatecalibur]

War has had the same 3gcd eye ramp up since 2.0. I cannot recall a single thread about this in 5 years until xeno made a video on it a month or so ago. So no, i dont just accept that putting up eye is suddenly 'clunky' when the competing tanks had roughly the same aoe ramp up forever. Hit fof. Darkside used to be pernanently on. If anything it is better than ever because we can extend eye via aoe combos for the 1st time ever. If anything war got significantly less 'clunky' this expac for aoe when were talking about eye.

Even as as a Paladin main, I can understand why some Warriors feel the AoE rotation's start up feels "clunky."
While Mythril Tempest maintaining Styorm's Eye uptime is great, needing to pause your AoE rotation for 3 gcds does sound odd. This would be like as if I had to do a Goring Blade Combo before I could gain MP from Prominence.

[Acidblood]

Just my opinion but dark arts was much more versatile and interesting skills that edge/flood,

Was it though? Dark Arts was just extra damage; Edge / Flood are just extra damage, but at least they are direct and tangible.

but instead they give us a oGCD that currently is not better that spam DA like in SB. :snip: the problem was exclusively on the rate of use in SB not his dessing.

Edge / Shadow are used less frequently than Dark Arts was (which I agree was the main issue).

they could design many mechanics around his uses that could be a lot of fun

2 issues with this:
1. If Dark Arts affects anything that is a DPS gain then that is the only thing that will get used.
2. While it could be cool to have Dark Arts affect cooldowns in interesting ways, that pretty much locks in double weaving as a requirement to playing DRK.

the most important thing about dark arts it's that was a big contributor of DRK identity

This I agree with, and while it technically still exists it just doesn't feel right being relegated to such a minor role (i.e. a passive buff).

[Acidblood]

War has had the same 3gcd eye ramp up since 2.0. I cannot recall a single thread about this in 5 years until xeno made a video on it a month or so ago. So no, i dont just accept that putting up eye is suddenly 'clunky' when the competing tanks had roughly the same aoe ramp up forever

AoE, forever.. umm, PLD says Hi.

And no one complained before because WAR doing so much AoE damage as a Tank was still somewhat unique (DRK had its own craziness), and if the price to pay for even more damage was a single-target ramp-up then no big deal... now, thanks to 5.0, ALL the Tanks do crazy amounts of AoE damage; i.e. WAR isn’t special any longer, so having a single-target based ramp-up feels outdated.

If anything it is better than ever because we can extend eye via aoe combos for the 1st time ever. If anything war got significantly less 'clunky' this expac for aoe when were talking about eye.

Sort of, and mechanically, yes… though by making Mythril Tempest extend Storm's Eye it very much sends the message that 'you should have Storms Eye on for AoE', so where Storm's Eye may have felt optional in the past, now it feels almost mandatory (like not having it on means you’re playing badly).

[Lyth]

To the best of my knowledge, no job initiates a burst window within 3 GCDs. I would expect that using an axe involves a certain amount of building up and maintaining momentum.

If every tank had to deal with identical mechanics, then we'd probably end up proving the thread topic correct.

...

The point of the Dark Knight questline is that such people are not innocent. They are happy to use you when it suits their ends, but will just as easily turn on you when it's convenient to do so. There's no point blindly following orders... unless you want to "die a slave". The merchant who sends you to recover his goods and then demands payment when the Qiqirn who stole them had damaged them is not "an innocent". The temple knights lead by Lord Drillemont who send you off to fight their battles for them and then turn around and try to detain you for allegations of heresy over "conversing with a corpse" are not "innocents". What were you planning on doing? Submitting yourself to the temple knights for execution? Play with fire and you get burned.

Hah hah...“surrender your weapon”? After what happened in Ul'dah? They must be mad.

Actually, this quote:
"Serve… Save… Slave… Slay… I’ve sins aplenty, aye, but regrets? Not so much. And if she wouldn’t listen to me, the embodiment of good sense and pragmatism, then what hope could you possibly have. A house divided cannot stand, you know. This childish rebellion ends now."
has nothing to do with the level 50 quest. It's actually a reference to Myste, who has a similar stance to what you're arguing:

So many broken by this world, then by you. So, so many… Woe betide the man who stands opposed to the Weapon of Light, for death will be his reward. Death for him and his kin and all he holds dear. Woe betide the man who stands with the Weapon of Light, for death will be his reward. Death for him and his kin and all that he holds dear. Like sands through the hourglass, everything we fight so desperately to protect slips through our fingers… and what remains… what remains…
Is us. Only us, and the memory of our sin.

Being a Dark Knight is about making a choice. It's easy to go along with whatever people tell you to do. In a way, it absolves you of the consequences of your decisions. A Dark Knight chooses their path, following their heart, and lives with the consequences:

Such is our lot. Such is the fate of all who are born – to suffer and to die. Do not seek forgiveness, for it will not ease the burden. It weighs as it should.

You can’t obsess over the mistakes of the past, or you’ll lose sight of the future. Of the people still with us, who need us more than ever.

Every action has a consequence. No action is purely good or evil. While you might feel that your character personally would be inclined to die on their sword over in Whitebrim, I don't think that's what mine would do. That's not really the Dark Knight way.

[DJMau]

You lot cry about wanting jobs to feel unique, but what happens when one of them plays differently from the others? Complaints, whining that x isn't like y.

[shao32]

Was it though? Dark Arts was just extra damage; Edge / Flood are just extra damage, but at least they are direct and tangible.


Edge / Shadow are used less frequently than Dark Arts was (which I agree was the main issue).


2 issues with this:
1. If Dark Arts affects anything that is a DPS gain then that is the only thing that will get used.
2. While it could be cool to have Dark Arts affect cooldowns in interesting ways, that pretty much locks in double weaving as a requirement to playing DRK.


This I agree with, and while it technically still exists it just doesn't feel right being relegated to such a minor role (i.e. a passive buff).

Dark arts was extra damage, extra enmity, selfheals, a blind, a 15% extra magic mitigation, extra evasion, a choice.

Technically is a question of personal preference, I prefer dark arts over a direct damage oGCD for the simple reason direct damage oGCD are present on almost all jobs already, DA was original and unique in many ways and current edge/flood remember me to shinten to much.

Since some DA effects are questionable like dark mind one the best thing of dark arts was the priority system, you always aways wanted to use DA on carve and spit then the mp was on dark passenger if was ready then for DA souleater.
even if DA was relegated to offensive buffs that would be better if they play on which one you want to buff first and have other options to spend MP so you priority one over the others depending of recast and resources, basically how HW DRK was.

Double weaving never was a real problem in HW for one single reason, on HW only souleater and power slash have a DA effect
on SB they choose to add neutral DA effects to the rest on our GCD, siphon strike, bloodspiller combined with souleater leave no room to place the buff and use comfy the DA effect of the other oGCD like HW use to let us combined they remove the other MP spender of the priority system dark passenger DA become kinda clunky for the double weaving, in resume to many GCD DA effects leaving little room to the other oGCD with the DA spam.

I still consider DA could be a nice mechanic to have if they return to the original use on HW but I guess that's impossible now witch is just a shame.

[Shurrikhan]

While i disagree, thanks for actually using words to explain your issue instead of just claiming 'clunky' as an argument.

It wasn't my issue. I used no more or less than what they wrote, just without cherry-picking and reducing the argument down to a "hip term" to dismiss what was, frankly, plenty clear.

So no, i dont just accept that putting up eye is suddenly 'clunky' when the competing tanks had roughly the same aoe ramp up forever.

No other tank has ever had AoE ramp-up. Period. It's only ever been WAR. And it's still only WAR. ...Probably because no other tank has ever had any rotational damage buff.

[Izsha]

It wasn't my issue. I used no more or less than what they wrote, just without cherry-picking and reducing the argument down to a "hip term" to dismiss what was, frankly, plenty clear.


No other tank has ever had AoE ramp-up. Period. It's only ever been WAR. And it's still only WAR. ...Probably because no other tank has ever had any rotational damage buff.

And yet no one complained about it for 5 years. Its been just as 'clunky' in 2.0 as it is now. So if it wasnt broken before, it certainly isnt now thay we have an aoe extension, gain resources while aoeing, have zero tp costs to manage. Until xeno made a vid and this pops up in every thread since.

If your putting it up wbery 30.seconds i dont know what you are doing when the 22.5 sec adter eye extend the duration. You can put up eue once and make it to the 1st boss of every lv 80 dungeon, and in many cases maintain it from the 1st boss to the 2nd and so on. You only need to put up eye a few times per 20 minute dungeon now. This is not a heavy, clunky burden to bear. Its people not actively maintainint the ONLY thing war has to maintain for dps in the most straightforward content in the game. And they have been maintaining for years, but now have multiple tools to make it even easier.

[Shurrikhan]

And yet no one complained about it for 5 years.

5 years ago, PLD didn't have AoE damage outside of its CoS CD.

Until ShB, DRK AoE was finite and PLD had no tools by which to recover its resource AoE. While PLD had to switch to self-healing to make use of its time in a way that could benefit AoE (via healer AoEs), WAR's SE combo likewise reduced TP spending while also improving future AoE.

Until ShB, SE in AoE did not feel like an unnecessarily designed (or, conflicted) hurdle so much as an opportunity to be woven. There's a difference between WAR in 2.x and now, even if due only to its context rather than the job itself.

[Acidblood]

You lot cry about wanting jobs to feel unique, but what happens when one of them plays differently from the others? Complaints, whining that x isn't like y.

So you play WAR for...
The unique way Overpower forces you to have a target and only hits mobs in front of you?
Or the unique way WAR does its single-target rotation during an AoE pull?
Wait, I bet it's the unique way Onslaught is a DPS loss most of the time and almost never available when it would be useful?

No, you don't, you play WAR because of the actually unique abilities and features it has; like Thrill of Battle, Inner Release (crits!), Infuriate (bigger crits!), etc.