Adventurer in need: Originality

[Quor]

Just like how you prefer simplicity, many of us prefer complexity. I dont think 1 class being the simple healer is a bad thing, so long as it is not TOO simple, but not all healers should be dragged down to that level. And many of us find it completely unfair that our classes were stripped of what made them complex and fun, and that's what most of these threads are addressing.

The problem with "complexity" is that it takes more work to do correctly. This in and of itself isn't a problem, but what *is* a problem is that people - rightfully - expect more complex tasks to be more rewarding. Translated into practical FF14 terms, a simple-to-use job shouldn't do as much damage/healing/tank as well as a more complex one, because the justification goes that if something is more complex and thus takes more work to do correctly, it should be more rewarding.

This works out relatively fine for dps classes, as you can more easily create different flows of complexity in a job that are perceived as more or less difficult by various people. BLM has it's own set of complexity despite having a rather simple rotation; a BLM needs to have a very intimate knowledge of a given fight in order to minimize movement and maximize casting uptime, because 100% of their damage comes from on-global skills. On the other side of things, a SMN has far more baseline mobility than a BLM, but trades that in for far greater oGCD complexity, as well as watching buff timers and debuff timers like a hawk. MNK is another example of a "simple yet complex" job. It has very few oGCD attacks, and thus is largely a GCD-based dps. But correctly performing as a MNK requires quite a bit of manual dexterity in order to maximize your dps output, which is another skill entirely (ER notwithstanding).

As it stands now, it seems like SE is going the route of complexity for healers being linked to knowledge of a given fight, much like tank complexity works. I've seen many tank players lament the "simplicity" of the combos that tanks have, and asking for something more "challenging" but that misses the mark. The complexity for a tank is having arguably the most intimate knowledge of a fight such that you know exactly when to use your various cooldowns and how close you can cut something to snag an extra GCD in a way that no DPS will ever think about it. The combos are kept simple for a reason; they're not the main challenge or focus of a tank job. DPS jobs have combos and rotations as their main focus. Healers - on the whole - seem to have moved more towards the tank style of "encounter complexity" as opposed to "rotational complexity." And this likely was done at least in part to avoid the situation of "AST/SCH are more complex to play than WHM so playing them successfully should thus be more rewarding" which saw an entire healing class largely sidelined for most of SB.

[DiznypKC]

That's a pretty neat idea, I would love to see it implemented, tbh. Though, not sure a lot of WHMs would be happy to see misery go. Heh.

Not necessarily. The funny thing is, a lot of ideas for job evolution can be found in the MSQ. Personally, I think it's silly that White Mages spam Holy. Holy is supposed to be our ultimate (besides LB). So for 2.0, change Holy to something a little less grand and lose the Stun. For time sake, let's call it "Pearl" (the OG Holy) and give it a blind effect, or no effect at all, to bring it in line with Art of War and Gravity. In 3.0, when we're focused on the Holy See and all that divine mumbo jumbo, let's add a center to the Lily gauge to represent Light, that fills over time and changes Pearl to Holy. In 4.0, let's add Quake/Tornado/Flood. In 5.0, after a Holy proc, the Lily becomes the Blood Lily. Stone becomes Glare, Aero becomes Die, Fluid Aura becomes Banish, and Holy becomes Misery. When Misery is cast, Blood Lily ends and reverts back to our Source-White Mage Lily. Just an example on how it COULD be done when you look at the evolution of the storyline.

[DiznypKC]

The point is, you can passively make the class more engaging without creating risk. That's the kind of mechanics healers should have. They can still choose whether or not they want to be a healbot, or utilize their full kit. They wouldn't suffer from dropping a cast, but they could still feel like they're doing more than pressing 1 2 11111111111111111111111 2 1111111111111111111 for ten minutes.

[Billythepancake]

The problem with "complexity" is that it takes more work to do correctly. This in and of itself isn't a problem, but what *is* a problem is that people - rightfully - expect more complex tasks to be more rewarding. Translated into practical FF14 terms, a simple-to-use job shouldn't do as much damage/healing/tank as well as a more complex one, because the justification goes that if something is more complex and thus takes more work to do correctly, it should be more rewarding.

This works out relatively fine for dps classes, as you can more easily create different flows of complexity in a job that are perceived as more or less difficult by various people. BLM has it's own set of complexity despite having a rather simple rotation; a BLM needs to have a very intimate knowledge of a given fight in order to minimize movement and maximize casting uptime, because 100% of their damage comes from on-global skills. On the other side of things, a SMN has far more baseline mobility than a BLM, but trades that in for far greater oGCD complexity, as well as watching buff timers and debuff timers like a hawk. MNK is another example of a "simple yet complex" job. It has very few oGCD attacks, and thus is largely a GCD-based dps. But correctly performing as a MNK requires quite a bit of manual dexterity in order to maximize your dps output, which is another skill entirely (ER notwithstanding).

As it stands now, it seems like SE is going the route of complexity for healers being linked to knowledge of a given fight, much like tank complexity works. I've seen many tank players lament the "simplicity" of the combos that tanks have, and asking for something more "challenging" but that misses the mark. The complexity for a tank is having arguably the most intimate knowledge of a fight such that you know exactly when to use your various cooldowns and how close you can cut something to snag an extra GCD in a way that no DPS will ever think about it. The combos are kept simple for a reason; they're not the main challenge or focus of a tank job. DPS jobs have combos and rotations as their main focus. Healers - on the whole - seem to have moved more towards the tank style of "encounter complexity" as opposed to "rotational complexity." And this likely was done at least in part to avoid the situation of "AST/SCH are more complex to play than WHM so playing them successfully should thus be more rewarding" which saw an entire healing class largely sidelined for most of SB.

The problem with relying on fights for people to get their complexity is that, once you've learned the fight, then what? Where do you go, you can't go back to your class and improve there because the skill ceiling is too low. DPS have to learn the fight mechanics too, but they still have a lot to juggle in the class itself as well, I dont see why tanks/heals cant have the same thing. I can't speak for you or anyone else, but I never want to hit a static cap where I feel like I can't get any better at my role, and that's where I feel this current iteration of healers is going to go, so simple and easy that it'd be impossible to get any better at my job, outside of fight specific optimizations, which just comes down to "where can I get away with not healing so I can squeeze in 1 more broil"

[Sunhwapark]

The point is, you can passively make the class more engaging without creating risk. That's the kind of mechanics healers should have. They can still choose whether or not they want to be a healbot, or utilize their full kit. They wouldn't suffer from dropping a cast, but they could still feel like they're doing more than pressing 1 2 11111111111111111111111 2 1111111111111111111 for ten minutes.

I must ask. How do you make something more passively engaging?

There was the active cleric stance dancing before - it had risks to use with damage being the reward, but that got removed. Debuffing bosses via Virus/Disable got taken and given to other roles. MP Recovery skills/debuff cleanses were all unified into lucid dreaming & esuna.

Healers are on a very thin plate at what they can do at the moment. Dealing or Healing is all there really is to do, once players identify what unavoidable damage does not 1-shot them.

[AphraelAmarantha]

snip

That's why I like it, there is no rotation. It is reactive. Its simple to memorize, use this skill in the event this happens, use this for when this happens and so on. I like that better than having to memorize a string of abilities just to get a heal or damage off or use another whole string of abilities for when something procs or whatever. That's just too much for me. And I don't like having to keep track of three or more meters. Rdm was hard enough with two. I like where lilies are now, just one gauge that goes up in battle. Use three lilies to get red lily, use red lily and repeat. I like where it is now. Its not complex, its simple and i can handle that. Anymore and it gets too much.

[DiznypKC]

In order to passively make a class feel more engaging, you would have to organically evolve the mechanics so that there is more of a progression as opposed to a rotation.

The Blood Lily mechanic is an example. It’s not a good one, but it’s a step in the right direction. It would be better if there were another way to expend lilies that didn’t require healing. I find myself using Solace between wall to wall pulls in Ex roulettes because I don’t need them otherwise. If we had, say, a shield we could throw out with a lily, that would be an improvement.

I’m getting off topic, but the point is that the Blood Lily is sort of a passive way of making White Mage feel like they’re more engaged. It gives the class a touch more complexity without making it busy, unlike the new card mini-game Astros have or the lackluster faeries Scholars use.

[DiznypKC]

You can keep the class reactive and engaging at the same time. The two ideas are not mutually exclusive.

[DiznypKC]

That's why I like it, there is no rotation. It is reactive. Its simple to memorize, use this skill in the event this happens, use this for when this happens and so on. I like that better than having to memorize a string of abilities just to get a heal or damage off or use another whole string of abilities for when something procs or whatever. That's just too much for me. And I don't like having to keep track of three or more meters. Rdm was hard enough with two. I like where lilies are now, just one gauge that goes up in battle. Use three lilies to get red lily, use red lily and repeat. I like where it is now. Its not complex, its simple and i can handle that. Anymore and it gets too much.

Also, due to the current combat design, at a certain point the job will stop being reactive and becomes rote muscle memory. What will you do then, when the only variety you have is the occasional mishap made by the less experienced player?

[AphraelAmarantha]

Also, due to the current combat design, at a certain point the job will stop being reactive and becomes rote muscle memory. What will you do then, when the only variety you have is the occasional mishap made by the less experienced player?

That’s what you don’t get though, I don’t want variety or super complex stuff. If it gets too complex, then I can no longer play the game which would be sad because then I can’t experience any of the story. I switched from rdm because it was too complex. I’m not a hardcore raider, I’m just a casual that likes the story. I don’t need more complexity. Whm is fine as it is.