(Spoiler) About amaurots downfall

[JeanneOrnitier]

We don't have a lot to go off of yet but I had assumed the root cause was the Ancients' creation magic. Fundamentally it's the same thing as the present's summoning magic, with the difference being that the Ancients had so much aether in their bodies that they could do it themselves. But if they did it so often, even for things like making clothes and buildings, then I'd imagine eventually they'd still start to hurt the world just like summoning too many primals does today. So I assume they put too much strain on the planet.

[Absimiliard]

By contrast, according to Emet-Selch the Ancients had to sacrifice their own lives so that Zodiark would do what was asked of him, be it ending the calamity destroying their world or restoring life to it. it's possible that, like Hydaelyn, Zodiark doesn't actually require this, but rather does it as a sort of equivalent exchange in order to avoid expending his own power. A being who values self-sacrifice as much as Hydaelyn seems to might see that as coveting power.

The first two sets of sacrifices were required just to summon Zodiark. The Ancients did not, to our knowledge, bribe him with souls as a means of securing his willing cooperation.

We don't have a lot to go off of yet but I had assumed the root cause was the Ancients' creation magic. Fundamentally it's the same thing as the present's summoning magic, with the difference being that the Ancients had so much aether in their bodies that they could do it themselves. But if they did it so often, even for things like making clothes and buildings, then I'd imagine eventually they'd still start to hurt the world just like summoning too many primals does today. So I assume they put too much strain on the planet.

Information currently available suggests that the Ancients did not make any use of external aether whatsoever during the creation process. Everything they did was entirely internally powered. Furthermore, everything we know about the cataclysm they faced thus far is that it was geological in origin. Their powers became dangerous only after a sound emanating from deep within the planet caused them to go haywire.

[Cilia]

The first two sets of sacrifices were required just to summon Zodiark. The Ancients did not, to our knowledge, bribe him with souls as a means of securing his willing cooperation.

The first set of sacrifices (half of the Ancients / Amaurotines) were made to create / summon Zodiark.

The second set of sacrifices (half of those remaining, or 25% of the original population that survived the Sound) were made to rehabilitate the planet, which had been rendered inhospitable (if not uninhabitable) by the chaos created by the Sound.

The third set of (intended) sacrifices (some measure of "planetary life energy," most likely mortals) were set to resurrect that 75% of the Ancients that were sacrificed to Zodiark.

I don't think it's so much as the Ancients bribed him, so much as he needs energy (aether) to do things as all primals do, and the scale on which Zodiark operates far exceeds the primals summoned in contemporary times. According to Emet-Selch he had to "rewrite the laws of reality" as they pertained to the planet, and fixing the planet afterwards would also be no mean feat. The Ancients "fed" him, for lack of a better term, so that Zodiark could do the things they wanted him to do. Despite being "the will of the star," he's still beholden to the wishes and vision of his summoners.

It was when some number of other Ancients grew tired of the sacrifices to Zodiark that they broke off and started the conflict that ended with Hydaelyn sundering and imprisoning Zodiark, shattering the planet into its now-familiar Source and reflections. And that, as they say, is that.

[QT_Melon]

We don't have a lot to go off of yet but I had assumed the root cause was the Ancients' creation magic. Fundamentally it's the same thing as the present's summoning magic, with the difference being that the Ancients had so much aether in their bodies that they could do it themselves. But if they did it so often, even for things like making clothes and buildings, then I'd imagine eventually they'd still start to hurt the world just like summoning too many primals does today. So I assume they put too much strain on the planet.

The one thing I've had issue with on the theory of the creation magic being their downfall is the fact the Ancients were so long lived that they've been apparently doing this for a very long time. I was curious at why the breaking point then vs earlier times in their existence. Was it due to population or what?

Basically I can subscribe behind a specific creation Magic act (or sets of) that did cause the incident, but just the presence of it with an eternal race doesn't quite jive as it being the cause. It just seems we're processing it as a short term thing when their existence spans much longer.


As far as Guardian Force I just figured is was another term for Primal like Eikon just what it was called in Ancient times since it simply makes sense that the term evolved over time. We may see with the story progressing, but I wasn't quick to assume it was going to translate to the same thing - just because they're giving homage from a different FF..

[Ardox]

The one thing I've had issue with on the theory of the creation magic being their downfall is the fact the Ancients were so long lived that they've been apparently doing this for a very long time. I was curious at why the breaking point then vs earlier times in their existence. Was it due to population or what?

There's absolutely nothing in the lore for us to know what the source is, but that reasoning is flawed: wherever the breaking point is you could always ask "Why not earlier?".

[QT_Melon]

There's absolutely nothing in the lore for us to know what the source is, but that reasoning is flawed: wherever the breaking point is you could always ask "Why not earlier?".

Well of course. But that isn't flawed logic. Murphy's Law if something that bad was going to go wrong, it should go wrong right away, otherwise they wouldn't have had to gone through all the trouble in their society if the discovery of their effects were detrimental.

Honestly sticking with "Creation Magics Gone Wild" sounds like a bad video late night TV infomercials are trying to sell you. I definitely want something more interesting than just that in storytelling.

[YianKutku]

Well of course. But that isn't flawed logic. Murphy's Law if something that bad was going to go wrong, it should go wrong right away, otherwise they wouldn't have had to gone through all the trouble in their society if the discovery of their effects were detrimental.

Honestly sticking with "Creation Magics Gone Wild" sounds like a bad video late night TV infomercials are trying to sell you. I definitely want something more interesting than just that in storytelling.

My own reading was that the fall of Amaurot was due to their complacency.

The problems with creation magicks occurred "across the sea", and we see Amaurotines kind of academically debate whether to go help them, or to leave them to their fate. The sheer blase nature of the Amaurotines makes me think that while this particular problem with creation magick had never happened before, other problems that might have been threatening did, and only just happened to be resolved before they went anywhere.

So it seems like the Amaurotines believed that this particular instance was just another hiccup in their everlasting paradise, until suddenly it wasn't, possibly due to snowballing too quickly to be contained. Interestingly, the Convocation apparently were desperate enough to summon Zodiark (and have dissenters leave to later summon Hydaelyn), so they took it seriously. Seriously enough to countenance sacrificing half of their entire race to fix whatever problems were happening "across the sea", while simultaneously keeping the true nature of the threat (and the price involved in solving it) obscured from the general populace.