"Final Fantasy XI-2" AKA: "Let's all flame each other because someone mentioned FFXI"

[Jennestia]

I am not sure how people find that fun, but opinions are opinions.

People found it "fun" because they understood you were not unable to do anything until you swapped gear but rather you swapped gear to enhance your output. The game didn't tell you you were unable to perform that action because you were wearing the wrong harness.

[Platinumstorm]

I see this mentioned quite a bit, but I never really understood what aspects they're talking about.

What features do you consider to be sloppy or 'oudated'?

Masochistic grind
Stationary forced grouping which requires players to spend hours sitting at a location just hoping to get a group before they even earn XP.
Poor controls, poor interface [PC at least]
class balance that discourages players from being able to play the way they wanted: I modeled my character after Rydia from FFII, and after leveling up Black mage and then leveling up summoner I was told repeatedly that no one wanted a Sum/BLM. This discourages players from playing. Yes, it's a community-driven issue at its core, but balances could have been implemented to make these kinds of combinations more viable. For example, instead of a constant drain on MP the summoner could have been dealt with on an unrecoverable HP/timer basis. If necessary, the power of magic spells could also be adjusted for when a summoned creature is out.

Leveling up through the same exact zones every time you level a new class up.
Unpolished market system, which didn't function as an auction house would. I see tons of praise for the FFXI AH on this forum, but honestly it's the worst system I've seen out of dozens of MMOs, honestly think the way FFXIV handled it with market wards + search was better than how FFXI's AH was. I know a lot of people tout the price search feature [people get nervous when they have to name their own price often times], but it was implemented into the AH system in a way that you were constantly going through menus over and over - backtracking and what not. That can be implemented much easier when you look at an item.

I think TP is outdated - it limits having unique mechanisms per class and can lead to simplification of combat. Maybe it can exist towards building a limit break or something grand, but having most classes rely on TP takes away potential depth/individual mechanics. At the same time there is a problem where we use classes from other skills, so TP acts as sort of a unifying point. Since they've already limited exchangeable skills, perhaps they could move them to cooldown only, as that resolves that issue and leaves interesting class mechanics open to the primary classes/jobs.

FFXI failed to provide story content for low level players at a substantial pace. I think this is really important for FFXIV to hit well in order to become a success. They really need to have story arcs that characters are interacting with on a regular basis so that it stays fresh in their mind even if they are a more casual player. Think of how many players enjoy playing FF games just for the story, and how disappointing it was to step foot into FFXI knowing that most of the time you aren't even doing things that are part of the story you're trying to experience. The assumption when you buy an FF game is that you're going to be in the middle of events, but in FFXI I felt like I was part of the events for about 1% of my time spent in the game. The rest was hopelessly trying to create groups or grinding on the same mobs over and over and over and over and over and over and over.

These are just a few examples - if you wish you can peruse my post history, although I'm sure a lot of it is lost from before the forum transfer.

[Fiosha_Maureiba]

Survey aside.

I WOULD like to see a FFXI-2 game.

But not what you think.

It should be an offline single-player (maybe with optional 4-6 multiplayer) adventure set in Vana'diel. Make it a sequel, prequel, or side story. This would allow those FF fans who didn't want to play an MMO to experience the fantastic story and world and characters of FFXI, and it would also give vets a chance to revisit the game long after they quit. Since the assets are pre-exisisting, the game would require much less work to make than even FFX-2 or FFXIII-2 (at least for a portable system).

Eventually, after FFXIV has run it's course, they should give it an offline sequel as well.

I would have / still would love this idea. And the neat thing is, FF12 is built on this same engine and nearly concept. Though its balance was adjusted down for three characters, standard offline game death penalty, an A.I. to control party members, but I agree on seeing a single-player Vana'diel themed game...

[D3aTh]

I thought gear swapping was one of FFXI's bad qualities. I don't like going through pieces of gear during a fight. I want one defining look on my character. Especially with being able to switch between classes at any time, it would be quite a hassle having several gear sets for each class in your inventory. It isn't worth it and it is tedious if anything. Can't cast Fire without putting on the Fire Staff for a more potent Fire. Can't use this WS until I switch to a piece of gear that will increase it's potency.

I am not sure how people find that fun, but opinions are opinions.

I was not talking about it like a "fun" feature. Actually, I find stupid seeing your char blink during ws xD But ! It can make old stuff still as good as new stuff because you use it in different situation. If they can find a better way so that they dont put useless new gears or they don't kill old content I'm all for it.

[Gramul]

Details

Thank you.
That was very informative.

[Fiosha_Maureiba]

<click the double white arrows in the blue box next to poster's name to see details>

Your post represents a large amount of my own opinions on the topic.

[Jennestia]

class balance that discourages players from being able to play the way they wanted

No it didn't --Jobs were designed like the job based FFs of old (FFI, III, V, Tactics), a Black Mage for example wasn't ever designed as a melee class, sure it could use Kris type daggers or rods but it doesn't mean they were used for frontline play, their strength comes from Black Magic, likewise a White Mage's strength comes from curative magics -- they could melee sure but that's not their design.

I was told repeatedly that no one wanted a Sum/BLM

You were told this because SMN/BLM is actually indeed a poor combo choice in online play, it worked fine in FFIV because that game wasn't balanced around job combinations and party configuration, all a SMN/BLM could do was summon avatars and nukes with low elemental magic skill, when a SMN/WHM or even SMN/RDM would have been more useful because you could also throw a cure in a pinch or be used as a main healer (notice how throughout the later FFs SMNs were always adorned with curative magic alongside their summons?)

Leveling up through the same exact zones every time you level a new class up.

This is only true because as the time went one people made certain areas "standard" even though there were a ton of alternatives, for example when I started in 2002, we didn't have Kazham to level our 24+ jobs, we leveled in Batallia Downs/Rolanberry Fields, which you could still do even post zilart launch, but most people went to kazham because it was newer.

Unpolished market system, which didn't function as an auction house would.

Auction House =

Open search system through NPC, in this case, Auction Counter, search item categories, see sale history, sell what you were selling for the prices, or buy what you're looking for. That's all an Auction House is in most MMOs, very rarely do people ever want or care for the "bidding" styled Auction House.

I think TP is outdated - it limits having unique mechanisms per class and can lead to simplification of combat.

Nothing is more simpler than spamming all of your abilities in a battle with little cooldown or restriction -- as in how most MMO gameplay is nowadays.

FFXI failed to provide story content for low level players at a substantial pace

It's more like players failed to grasp it -- The Mission and Quest structure of FFXI was designed for you to do them as you hit level strides -- The first 3 missions were designed to be done while you're level 1 - 25, that's the main storyline, there were plenty of side quests to do in the process. The last set of missions (4 - 10) were designed in chunks of levels, i.e 40/50/60-75(rank 10 final fight).

Think of how many players enjoy playing FF games just for the story, and how disappointing it was to step foot into FFXI knowing that most of the time you aren't even doing things that are part of the story you're trying to experience.

I fall into this crowd and I had absolutely zero issues experiencing the storyline or feeling a part of it because the simple fact is -- FFXI was an MMO, if you just dump storyline content and no "free reign" what would be the purpose of it being online? XI had a perfect balance of story/MMO gameplay and Chains of Promathia expansion pack, before people complained about difficulty, was what set that balance in motion.

[Fiosha_Maureiba]

Q: If, before FFXIV's release you had the choice between SE making an entirely new MMO or just upgrade FFXI's graphics / specs, which would you choose?

I would have liked to see what PS3 generation Ambrosia Odyssey turned into. RIP mysterious game. Or a Final Fantasy Musou with cross-overs, create-a-character with a voice, and online co-op.

Q: How much of an influence do you think Final Fantasy XI should have on Final Fantasy XIV?

Minimal. Influence from Final Fantasy works on a whole, yes. I already like the one character for all jobs concept. Anything else, I would prefer an updated and/or refined version of the feature.

Q: Do you think it's good idea to directly port and update XI systems (for example: Skillchains), or should Square Enix try to actively avoid doing stuff like that and come up with entirely original systems that have little resemblance to their previous MMO?

I think I would have liked to have seen several systems from other offline SE games to have been adapted to an MMO environment. From FFTA and FF9's learning abilities through equipment, FF13's chain-stagger-role mechanics, or some SaGa's developing an ability through use and circumstance, etc.

Q: Do you think that making Final Fantasy XIV similar to XI / older MMOs would make the game more successful than trying to conform to more "modern" mmo standards?

Shortest version I can make and accept: The way FFXI was modeled after EQ with an addendum of FF concepts (which many folks here really seemed to like), I would have loved for FFXIV to have been modeled after WoW with the similar addendum of FF concepts.

Q: Similarly, do you believe there's something about Final Fantasy XI SE should run away as fast as possible and make it / keep it completely different from that game?

Pretty much most of what PlatinumStorm posted, thank goodness he typed that or I would have had to here, heheheh.

[Toxsik]

2) Pre-Abysea I would of been happy with upgraded graphics and some more modern elements to appease mainstream gamers, Post-Abysea well that killed everything that made XI better then the competition honestly, in this case I would prefer XIV. So depends on the time frame the question is in.

YEAH the ridiculous level cap raise and crazy leveling (way to fast) {(skill points fail)} broke FFXI IMO,... So i would endorse the above statement.

I would also add some things i would like to see that were in FFXI:
1. More advanced text commands i.e. the ability to type /linkshell2 and text to that ls without having to switch, /playtime, /sea all 1-50 to get a easy server count etc.
2. A fkn' "flag up" party option for baby Jesus!
3. A more well planned up advanced jobs... not just better versions of current jobs,... but jobs like Samurai, Dark Knight, Ninja, Beastmaster, and maybe we could get some new jobs this roll like: Machinist and Necromaner. Give me different ones w/ different weapons like great swords, scythe, big and small kantanas, maybe some nun'fkn-chucks, machinist could have some crazy wrench stuff. LULZ
4. I really want some weapons like in FFXI that you had to get a drop on then go get 500 WS with it to unlock its full potential.
5. Maybe keep the combo system and find a way to incorporate Magic Burst stuff in there.
6. Please raise the level cap to 75 again I felt that was pretty good FFXI went with that for years before going 90+ and breaking the game,... not just because they raised the cap to 90 but because they did not implement it well enough doing so.
7. Make macros a bigger part of FFXIV i.e. take macros out of config menu and put them in the main Menu.

Maybe I will think of some more things later,... that's just off the top of my head.

[Tibian]

You were told this because SMN/BLM is actually indeed a poor combo choice in online play, it worked fine in FFIV because that game wasn't balanced around job combinations and party configuration, all a SMN/BLM could do was summon avatars and nukes with low elemental magic skill, when a SMN/WHM or even SMN/RDM would have been more useful because you could also throw a cure in a pinch or be used as a main healer (notice how throughout the later FFs SMNs were always adorned with curative magic alongside their summons?)

Then what about all the other combinations that didn't fly. What about all the other groups that required /nin because of stupid shadows? What about how literally everything you WANTED to do, required a SPECIFIC job/sub combination. That to me is 100% restrictive, not because it "isn't optimal." The dev team had perfect opportunities to fix these chances and failed to act on any of them. If they wanted set job/subs, why did they even bother with the subjob system? I was refused exp leveling groups because I didn't have /ninja leveled up for a very long time. So, even though I didn't WANT to play or even touch ninja, I had to level it for both Corsair and Blue Mage JUST to level up. To me that is garbage.

This is only true because as the time went one people made certain areas "standard" even though there were a ton of alternatives, for example when I started in 2002, we didn't have Kazham to level our 24+ jobs, we leveled in Batallia Downs/Rolanberry Fields, which you could still do even post zilart launch, but most people went to kazham because it was newer.

Yes, a ton of alternatives that nobody wanted to do. I recall waiting in Jeuno/Whitegate for several hours just waiting for a group to happen. When it did, you probably went to those "standard" areas because it was easiest/closest/etc. Again, XI dev team could have mediated this several ways by making better balance changes to monsters/exp/travel time to get to certain places to level.

After level sync was implemented did people even leave Qufim? I don't think so. But we sure had the "option" to. /eyeroll.

Auction House =

Open search system through NPC, in this case, Auction Counter, search item categories, see sale history, sell what you were selling for the prices, or buy what you're looking for. That's all an Auction House is in most MMOs, very rarely do people ever want or care for the "bidding" styled Auction House.

The auction house was just a primitive version of a more modern AH. If XIV reverts back to that same terrible design... it is a mistake. Plenty of games out now have improved the AH UI and functionality.

Nothing is more simpler than spamming all of your abilities in a battle with little cooldown or restriction -- as in how most MMO gameplay is nowadays.

That is because modern MMOs have challenges built into the fight and specific phases. XI's "challenges" included sever problems, battling with the worst UI in MMO history, and waiting for that extra TP build which actually stifles your play style.

It's more like players failed to grasp it -- The Mission and Quest structure of FFXI was designed for you to do them as you hit level strides -- The first 3 missions were designed to be done while you're level 1 - 25, that's the main storyline, there were plenty of side quests to do in the process. The last set of missions (4 - 10) were designed in chunks of levels, i.e 40/50/60-75(rank 10 final fight).

It's more like you failed to recognize that the story was far to difficult to experience for new players. You needed a group to do anything which was the primary problem. Secondly, the content was created to experience once and then forget it existed. So people who had already passed the content didn't want to do it again. This meant newer players had to beg and plead older players to come help. Chances are they didn't want to.

The last set of missions (4 - 10) were designed in chunks of levels, i.e 40/50/60-75(rank 10 final fight).

Lets not forget it could take months to gain 10 levels and do the "unlock level" quests. Oh but wait, its ok cuz "thats how they were designed!!!" Yeah.. they were designed extremely poorly.

I fall into this crowd and I had absolutely zero issues experiencing the storyline or feeling a part of it because the simple fact is -- FFXI was an MMO, if you just dump storyline content and no "free reign" what would be the purpose of it being online? XI had a perfect balance of story/MMO gameplay and Chains of Promathia expansion pack, before people complained about difficulty, was what set that balance in motion.

What free reign was there in XI? You were restricted in everything you did. You were forced to level up certain classes or be excluded from fights. You were forced to UNLOCK your higher levels. You were FORCED to group with parties to do ANYTHING. You were FORCED out of alternate zones. Forced out of anything freedom of choice. Even though I never got to the merit system, I overheard plenty of people complaining about how you were required and expected to get certain merits because that is what everyone else did. That isn't freedom. That is XI masochism garbage.