Thought about RDM's utility

[Gaethan_Tessula]

The job needs dps buffs instead

In general, yes. In terms of DPS buff abilities, I'm split. I think the rDPS from buffers needs to exceed the rDPS of selfish jobs so long as the buffers are also DPS jobs. Or else why take them? On the other hand, if all of your "support utility" is just a roundabout way to add DPS, why have it? Why not just make everyone selfish at that point (to me, the answer why not is to avoid homogenity, but that's also why I think non-DPS support is neccesary on some jobs).

...it’s utility so far is so powerful it’s a weight on the entire job design. More needs to go into making RDM wanted in farm groups. It’s place in progression and more are already strong enough.

No, it's not. Square Enix thinks it is, but in practice Verraise and Vercure are not useful enough in Savage Prog to make RDM valued. Or else you wouldn't see PUG practice and clear groups excluding RDM or seeing BLM get preferred for prog instead. There's a bunch of threads about this. These skills are not sufficient for prog because they don't do enough to actually keep the party alive. Verraise comes too late for that, and a single target, middling potency, heavily mana inefficient GCD heal is subpar.

This game isn't built to Support such a Support job. Healers have waay more then enough healing to deal with healing alone, RDMs application to being a Defensive Utility will leave it on the bench. we need to stop being taxed for Verraise and Vercure not increase the quantity of things being taxed. as it stands we'll be the benched caster for the expansion if something doesn't change.

As a healer, I'm all for that damage going up to the point I really want a healer-aid in the party for prog. Or having a healer aid strong enough to make transitioning into solo-healing for farm comfortable. Also, healing in this game is largely oGCD based. Every hypothetical oGCD support ability RDM could bring powerful enough to negate needing to use a GCD increases healer DPS.

All it takes to make defensive support on ALL jobs and roles more valued is to stop making healing so brainless outside of like, one or two phases each in end-Savage and Ultimate fights.

In a different direction, if healers get more engaging non-healing downtime that needing to heal could interrupt, that ALSO increases the value of defensive support hybrids in tanks and DPS.

In regards to class balance I always see it like this:

You need to balance all the classes within a role, then you need to balance all the roles that compete with each other (Namely DPS.)

Technically yes, but you also need distinctions if you want to justify having multiple different sub-roles within a role and multiple jobs in a sub-role. Distinctions BEYOND aesthetic and what order buttons are pressed in. Otherwise you're just generating quantity for quantity's sake.

When it comes to offensive balance, the only numbers that need tweaked are the RDPS + PDPS of one member of that role with the RDPS + PDPS of the other members of that role.

To an extent, yes. It should be pretty close. I think there is some room for putting a job behind for defensive considerations, but only SLIGHTLY given the priority put on DPS and ONLY then if the defensive utility is actually, provably powerful for clearing (which Verraise really isn't given current design).

Where SE starts to go astray in my eyes is why they try to balance Offense + Defense vs Offense + Defense. Classes don't need to completely homogenize, but if a defining feature emerges from the role, then the entire role needs an equivalent. An example being again Shield Shamba and Tactician. They bring that same core universal Defensive buff with a long duration on a 3 minute cool down.

That is literally completely homogenizing. If every job in a given role has the exact same capabilities, and the only difference is what colored lights they generate and order buttons are pressed in for the DPS rotation, why even have multiple jobs? You could just have one with a few purely cosmetic customization options.

SE needs to change the way they balance roles. Core Non-offensive utility needs to be shared amongst the role. PDPS and RDPS should be the only factors in balancing Offense within a role. The party bonus is what should keep all the roles desireable in raids even if their DPS alone are similar, the diverse role choice boosting the party's DPS with its bonus.

So yeah, heavily disagree with this. Non-DPS utility shouldn't be a huge factor in determining DPS, because enrages and farm exist to keep the jobs that give a few extra % DPS played. But we shouldn't eliminate non-DPS support abilities or make them cookie cutter across a role. All that does is further homogenize and further constrict design space. No DPS should have irreplaceable support, but it should be possible for one job to carry one type of utility that it takes two others to meet, in exchange for being deficient in another type of non-DPS utility.

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As for DPS support abilities, buffers ideally need to have a higher rDPS than non-buffers, but the non-buffers need significantly higher pDPS to justify taking them (I've seen it tossed around that BLM, SAM, and MCH should get a trait that boosts the effect of others job's buffs on them). This may require current damage support skills to become stronger in order to hit that balance marker.

[Zyneste]

That is literally completely homogenizing. If every job in a given role has the exact same capabilities, and the only difference is what colored lights they generate and order buttons are pressed in for the DPS rotation, why even have multiple jobs? You could just have one with a few purely cosmetic customization options.

So yeah, heavily disagree with this. Non-DPS utility shouldn't be a huge factor in determining DPS, because enrages and farm exist to keep the jobs that give a few extra % DPS played. But we shouldn't eliminate non-DPS support abilities or make them cookie cutter across a role. All that does is further homogenize and further constrict design space. No DPS should have irreplaceable support, but it should be possible for one job to carry one type of utility that it takes two others to meet, in exchange for being deficient in another type of non-DPS utility.

Going from "Core Non-offensive utility needs to be shared amongst the role." to " we shouldn't eliminate non-DPS support abilities or make them cookie cutter across a role" is really shifting what i'm suggesting. As long as all members of the role brings an answer to the defining support, even if in a different form, then balance is still achieved. The tank invulnerabilities are an example of this. Old Mages Ballad and MP Promotion.

Abilities that don't define the role, like mantra, Everlasting Flight and curing Waltz are weak enough that they don't have a considerable impact on job composition amongst the role, but still add flavor/ limited utility to the role.

Raise is one of these skills that define the role. It warps the dps balance its so important to it. That needs to see an adjustment. Raise on a 2 minute cool down with 2 charges seems pretty balanced to me. Call it homogenization, but a Role sets a standard for what that role should be able to do. If 1/3 members can't use the defining feature of the role, the role needs adjusted or the odd man out needs removed from the role.

[Gaethan_Tessula]

Going from "Core Non-offensive utility needs to be shared amongst the role." to " we shouldn't eliminate non-DPS support abilities or make them cookie cutter across a role" is really shifting what i'm suggesting. As long as all members of the role brings an answer to the defining support, even if in a different form, then balance is still achieved. The tank invulnerabilities are an example of this. Old Mages Ballad and MP Promotion.

Your previous example was Shield Samba/Tactician/Troubadour. Which are literally the same skill except for the animation and what level they're learned (and BRD, the one who originated the skill, gets theirs LAST currently, sadly enough). That's cookie cutter. That's homogenization. Tank invuls are a better example of things that still allow for distinct and meaningful differences in a skill while still enabling the function across a role; I find the HW refresh mechanics to be dubious on that account.

Abilities that don't define the role, like mantra, Everlasting Flight and curing Waltz are weak enough that they don't have a considerable impact on job composition amongst the role, but still add flavor/ limited utility to the role.

If they're allowed to be useful? Great. But how far can a skill be pushed in relevance before it becomes "role defining?" I'd rather not see all possible support skills either be terribly weak or have to be role skills.

There are other games that have managed to find balance in diversity. FF14 isn't those games, but there's nothing that prescribes the present rigidity of capability it has even among the Trinity MMO subgenre either. Especially if the bigger definition of the role, raid DPS, is allowed to be more uniform across jobs and thus ceases to be weighed against a job's non-DPS support capabilities.

Raise is one of these skills that define the role. It warps the dps balance its so important to it. That needs to see an adjustment. Raise on a 2 minute cool down with 2 charges seems pretty balanced to me. Call it homogenization, but a Role sets a standard for what that role should be able to do. If 1/3 members can't use the defining feature of the role, the role needs adjusted or the odd man out needs removed from the role.

Everything warps DPS balance. Better healing and mitigation frees up healer GCD's. Better movement options make it easier to retain uptime. In this game, at least, it usually pales compared to the baseline DPS of a job. If baseline optimized rDPS can be brought more in line across DPS jobs, there's a lot of design spaced opened for new support abilities without unbalancing jobs completely. Given that weakness heavily penalizes DPS anyways, and some mechanics will just wipe the party if you fail, in the context of actually clearing difficult content I'd dispute the true potency of raise on preserving DPS. Clearly it hasn't been enough to justify RDM over BLM this expansion, and multi-rez wasn't enough to make RDM PAR with one-rez SUM during the latter's height in StB.

I'd rather see BLM get removed from the role, and put into a new role with SAM and maybe MCH, than get a raise move.

All they realistically need to do is restore the gap to what it was in SB and we would be fine.

The problem isn’t our dps, the problem is how wide the dps difference is between RDM and BLM.

Just give RDM abit more dps and it’d be fine. But right now it’s like 2700 dps behind BLM. Which is too wide,

I don't think that's an adequate solution. I have a problem in general with raid buff rDPS jobs having less rDPS than selfish DPS. It's not as much an issue when your role is straight support or something like healer (though, debatable in FF14 given how they've chosen to balance WHM and the powerful focus on DPS'ing as healer). When you're a DPS, and a chunk of your DPS depends entirely on other players, and even at your and their BEST that doesn't take you above someone who can bring more independently? That's an issue.

Of course, the selfish DPS need their place too, which was the issue in StB. And the only real solution I can see if making optimal results from buffing only possible if you have a selfish in your party.

Also, by the gap, do you mean the absolute number or the percentage? Because if SE insists on maintaining a rDPS gap between jobs, basing it on the absolute number becomes increasingly meaningless as expansions and gear march on. I don't have a strong opinion here, but I do note that I see players saying the gap needs to go back to the exact number it was, while ignoring that now our DPS is about double what it was end StB.