So, can we just ban damage meters already.

[Komarimono]

I see it quite often actually. Usually brought up specifically in endgame content. I have seen it doing my weekly Eden's, extreme farm parties (not just the current ones), almost always in savage pug runs, actually sometimes in alliance raid too. However, in low level content.. not so much. People do complain about each other's "bad" dps or something along those lines in other content, but it is usually without bringing up a parser.

We weren't discussing that though. The OP's complaint was seeing it in normal dungeons over and over. End game it's to be expected though.

[SturmChurro]

We weren't discussing that though. The OP's complaint was seeing it in normal dungeons over and over. End game it's to be expected though.

Yeah, and I think he was talking about level 50 and below dungeons too. Honestly, thinking about it, it is kind of ridiculous. Why would anybody even be using a parser in that kind of content?

[Enla]

Speak for yourself.

My first experience with logs was checking that website that shall not be named to see if pugs had put up my logs, from curiosity. I felt I was doing fine. It's not rocket science like you said.

I was terrible. Awful, grey parsing, making tons of mistakes. It lead to me doing a lot of research with that information and becoming twice the player I am now and I still have a ton of room to improve. You can't see every mistake and error you make from just hitting things blindly.

It was the same for me, only instead of checking the site that shall not be named I had a friend read back my parse during Skalla back when it was still new content. I. Was. Terrible. My friend did their best not to make me upset but I was pulling in just half of what was standard for MCH. Meanwhile I was hitting all my procs, doing what I thought was needed, and felt that while I wasn't the greatest player I could at least not hold my party back. It was extremely sobering and while I later learned my latency was also hamfisting my numbers, it didn't explain quite the level of poor play I was exhibiting.

So I stopped, went back to the drawing board, and started consuming rotation guides like they were candy. It helped a /lot/. Even then it wasn't until I got more active into parsing and looking up my logs that I made even more improvement. With the latest leap being going over the top Savage tier clears and looking at all the spell casts done by the jobs I was interested in. Lo and behold I take that information into my own Static's runs as this is my first time ever trying a Savage tier and things suddenly become a /lot/ easier.

Yeah you don't need logs to play well, but they definitely help in many situations.

[Imbrium]

It was established a while back that the OP was lying or heavily exaggerating. Since you rarely see people ever mentioning parse related info ever unless in your FC chat.

I'm sorry when was this established? Or when did the op get proven as a liar? I've seen plenty of people claiming he must be because THEY don't do this so it must never happen, and that ACT is God's gift to raiders so he must be crazy.

I still honestly believe most of what the op posted however as I've seen this behavior aimed at sprouts and players in learming dungeons as well. If it did not happen to him, it's happening to other players and his points still stand.

[Misutoraru]

I agree with this 100%. We need to stop the harassment. Most parsers dont harass people, bad people with parsers do. Parsers are just a tool.

and how do we stop it?
by putting a control on said tool
i am sorry if you are on console, but the current dont ask, dont tell rule is just about the middle ground we need, not any further

[Komarimono]

I'm sorry when was this established? Or when did the op get proven as a liar? I've seen plenty of people claiming he must be because THEY don't do this so it must never happen, and that ACT is God's gift to raiders so he must be crazy.

I still honestly believe most of what the op posted however as I've seen this behavior aimed at sprouts and players in learming dungeons as well. If it did not happen to him, it's happening to other players and his points still stand.

Because he admitted it for one, for two you honestly don't see much parser mentions in low levels dungeons if ever, since not needed ever. You can AFK through them most times.

And you're free to your beliefs as is anyone, doesn't make you right though I'm afraid and people are allowed differing opinions.

This debate is as old as parsers ever existing though, from Age of Camelot to WoW to Rift etc etc. But one fact that came out of all the debates, is people are scared of being ousted when they perform poorly in a tightly tuned environment, and are heavily against said tools due to this reason.

That fear is what leads to the hate, they would rather blame tools then come to the realization that not everyone is equal. And everyone doesn't have to be equal, you simply just have to group with like minded persons and your play experience is just fine.

[Mhaeric]

Oh for Pete's sake, not this stuff again.

You.
Do.
Not.
Need.
Parsers.
To.
Better.
Yourself.

For eff's sake. Do a little math. This. Ain't. Rocket. Science.

It's VERY easy to create a solid rotation.

Step 1. Look at the potency of abilities.
Step 2. Look at cooldowns.
Step 3. Put cooldowns in order to take advantage of the global cooldown to maximize up time.

SMH

They are very handy for bettering yourself, primarily as a way to notice things that you would have missed otherwise. A parser isn't going to help you find a better rotation or press buttons more efficiently, but it sure as heck gives you a number you can use to see if you're doing better than average or not.

Here's my anecdote to provide an example: I reached level 80 RDM and started running the 3 level 80 dungeons in a blend of i430 and i440 gear. I know my rotation and am used to being at or near the top of dps in all prior content I've run but noticed that while my DPS had gone up it didn't compare to the other level 80 people that I was running with by a large margin. I expected to be on the lower end of things due to just getting into the content, but these people were suddenly and very unexpectedly doing more than 40% more DPS than I was. At first, I just assumed it was my ilevel since many people were running i450 gear by then, but I was a bit suspicious that such a dps difference would be due to only 10 ilevels. This suspicion was further increased when I noticed after a few runs that some people in mixes of i430 and i440 gear were also outperforming me by several thousand dps and I was only 1-2k above the tanks in output. I knew I wasn't doing anything wrong at all in terms of rotation, so I was confused. I decided I would try melding to see if that would help even though I wasn't in the end-game gear yet. I didn't even overmeld and the difference was both huge and instantaneous. I gained a 40% increase in my DPS output on the very next run, and would have been completely clueless that I wasn't performing as well as I could have without the parses. Yes, I knew melding would increase my output, but I had just assumed I didn't need to bother until I got into the i450 gear since the general consensus is that it isn't that big of a difference and only really has an impact in savage. Parsing let me see how wrong that assumption was, and led to a huge improvement in my performance. If I hadn't had access to a dps parse, I would still be sitting here happily pumping out only 8-9k dps in level 80 dungeons instead of the 12-13k I can manage now and thinking I was doing well.

[Imbrium]

Because he admitted it for one, for two you honestly don't see much parser mentions in low levels dungeons if ever, since not needed ever. You can AFK through them most times.

And you're free to your beliefs as is anyone, doesn't make you right though I'm afraid and people are allowed differing opinions.

This debate is as old as parsers ever existing though, from Age of Camelot to WoW to Rift etc etc. But one fact that came out of all the debates, is people are scared of being ousted when they perform poorly in a tightly tuned environment, and are heavily against said tools due to this reason.

That fear is what leads to the hate, they would rather blame tools then come to the realization that not everyone is equal. And everyone doesn't have to be equal, you simply just have to group with like minded persons and your play experience is just fine.

...where? Can you link me this post I must of missed? I don't like missing information.

Yes, you're free your opinions. Some opinions are more hostile than others and come out as hostile in text form. In which case the saying if you have nothing nice to say... don't say anything at all still applies, at least in game. It's not hard to weigh silence, being a decent contributor, and being rude.

And that's not me saying don't call people out. SE is fine with constructive criticism, not verbal abuse. The latter happens too often with people defending it.

How on earth does asking to leave parse shaming out of low level learning content lead to banning all parsing? This is the major issue I'm having with a lot of the posts, especially if we agree you don't need it there anymore once you're max level. The op asked about low level learning content, not a tight dps checked savage fight. Yet most posts zoomed to endgame anyway. It's like weighing a grain of sand versus a boulder (the landslides...).

I feel like the majority of the posters are the ones who are either angry or afraid, because as I said, the op did not worship at the holy shrine of ACT. You read ban and parse in the same title and the post itself is meaningless. No one is going to take our parsers, no one is going to shut down fflogs.

[Komarimono]

...where? Can you link me this post I must of missed? I don't like missing information.

Yes, you're free your opinions. Some opinions are more hostile than others and come out as hostile in text form. In which case the saying if you have nothing nice to say... don't say anything at all still applies, at least in game. It's not hard to weigh silence, being a decent contributor, and being rude.

And that's not me saying don't call people out. SE is fine with constructive criticism, not verbal abuse. The latter happens too often with people defending it.

How on earth does asking to leave parse shaming out of low level learning content lead to banning all parsing? This is the major issue I'm having with a lot of the posts, especially if we agree you don't need it there anymore once you're max level. The op asked about low level learning content, not a tight dps checked savage fight. Yet most posts zoomed to endgame anyway. It's like weighing a grain of sand versus a boulder (the landslides...).

I feel like the majority of the posters are the ones who are either angry or afraid, because as I said, the op did not worship at the holy shrine of ACT. You read ban and parse in the same title and the post itself is meaningless. No one is going to take our parsers, no one is going to shut down fflogs.

You're more then free to search his post history unless he deleted it. Myself and others called him out on it, especially since I may have very well been the person who dismissed them from group since the healer(which is not DPS related) Kept dying over and over to simple mechanics that other sprouts were doing fine with. But I simply said they were not ready for this dungeon yet if they can't avoid simple damage before removing them.

He himself wanted to ban all parsing though, and kept trying to defend his stance over and over, blaming the tool on a rather aggressive mode I may add. Most of the posts went to end game, since that's where you see the parsing being done. Sure some are lazy and keep it running for roulette's and the like, but 99% don't care about someones DPS is what we all were saying.

He was implying it was a constant thing in low level dungeons and leveling groups, which in my hundreds of runs I've not seen a single mention of it, even when doing trial roulette's. Most complaints is people not doing mechanics or leeching by not doing anything, which you don't need a parser to know anyway.

[Forever_Learning]

Yes, I knew melding would increase my output, but I had just assumed I didn't need to bother until I got into the i450 gear since the general consensus is that it isn't that big of a difference and only really has an impact in savage. Parsing let me see how wrong that assumption was, and led to a huge improvement in my performance. If I hadn't had access to a dps parse, I would still be sitting here happily pumping out only 8-9k dps in level 80 dungeons instead of the 12-13k I can manage now and thinking I was doing well.

I believe people mean you don't really need to meld in order to clear the content. Obviously, higher DPS = faster runs, but this is like when people in WoW discussed when to gem and enchant their gear. Yes, you could do it on dungeon gear, and it would make your DPS better in dungeons, but people don't really care about the DPS you are doing there.