Issue with TBN

[Absimiliard]

Drk has the same number of CDs as War and Gun and shorter CDs on 2 of them than their equivalents on war and gun. Pld is the one with 1 less CD, but it has a passive shield and a second party mit. Drk is not short.

Do you see the word /effectively/ in there? Effectively is rather important. No one has said DRK is /actually/ short one. But just to entertain, consider the following:

Heart of Stone = TBN (Granted, TBN is much, much stronger than Heart of Stone most of the time)
Camouflage = ????
Rampart = Rampart
Nebula = Shadow Wall
Heart of Light = Dark Missionary
Arm's Length = Arm's Length

People often greatly underestimate the raw value of Camouflage and its counterpart in Warrior's kit. As for DRK, it gets Dark Mind. Dark Mind is useless a large amount of the time, and it's honestly still not even that good when circumstances do permit its use. The state Dark Mind is currently in means that DRK is indeed effectively short one defensive CD most of the time. They could at least give it a small percentage based damage reduction like what's on Camouflage or something. Oh, and Living Dead is a suicide button.

[Izsha]

Do you see the word /effectively/ in there? Effectively is rather important. No one has said DRK is /actually/ short one. But just to entertain, consider the following:

Heart of Stone = TBN (Granted, TBN is much, much stronger than Heart of Stone most of the time)
Camouflage = ????
Rampart = Rampart
Nebula = Shadow Wall
Heart of Light = Dark Missionary
Arm's Length = Arm's Length

People often greatly underestimate the raw value of Camouflage and its counterpart in Warrior's kit. As for DRK, it gets Dark Mind. Dark Mind is useless a large amount of the time, and it's honestly still not even that good when circumstances do permit its use. The state Dark Mind is currently in means that DRK is indeed effectively short one defensive CD most of the time. They could at least give it a small percentage based damage reduction like what's on Camouflage or something. Oh, and Living Dead is a suicide button.

Youre 1st statement is still completely wrong. Drk is not 'effectively' short anything. Dark mind exists. Dark is not"effectively short a defensive coooldown to compensate for TBN being as strong as it is". You cant just pretend the shortest cooldown cooldown in its class 'effectively' doesnt exist. It does, and its very powerful.

Your 2nd statement I didnt comment on because its not wrong as you were referencing the lack of physical mitigation and "75% fo the time" being dungeons, trash, autos, etc.

[Absimiliard]

Youre 1st statement is still completely wrong. Drk is not 'effectively' short anything. Dark mind exists. Dark is not"effectively short a defensive coooldown to compensate for TBN being as strong as it is". You cant just pretend the shortest cooldown cooldown in its class 'effectively' doesnt exist. It does, and its very powerful.

Your 2nd statement I didnt comment on because its not wrong as you were referencing the lack of physical mitigation and "75% fo the time" being dungeons, trash, autos, etc.

You appear to be misunderstanding the word effectively. Once again, saying X is effectively Y is not saying IS Y, it's saying X may as well be Y. Dark Mind is so bad most of the time that it doesn't even get used, whereas the other tanks (with the exception of paladin) do have an extra button they can press during pulls that will provide additional mitigation. Therefore, because DRK can't use Dark Mind under most circumstances, it is effectively short a cooldown a lot of the time. I am not in any shape, way, or form implying that TBN doesn't exist or is weak. Where did you even get that? That being said, its short cooldown is more than made up for by its MP cost. The ability is not imbalanced at all.

[Izsha]

You appear to be misunderstanding the word effectively. Once again, saying X is effectively Y is not saying IS Y, it's saying X may as well be Y. Dark Mind is so bad most of the time that it doesn't even get used, whereas the other tanks (with the exception of paladin) do have an extra button they can press during pulls that will provide additional mitigation. Therefore, because DRK can't use Dark Mind under most circumstances, it is effectively short a cooldown a lot of the time. I am not in any shape, way, or form implying that TBN doesn't exist or is weak. Where did you even get that? That being said, its short cooldown is more than made up for by its MP cost. The ability is not imbalanced at all.

I was talking about dark mind. It is (also) the shortest cooldown in its class and has functions in everything except trash pulls. Which is, again, why i didnt dispute your dungeon trash pull '75% of the time' comment. Dark mind is utterly amazing in everything that isnt million mob trash pull. Downplaying it as 'effectively not existing' is completely disingenous for one of the strongest mitigation skills in the game.

[Absimiliard]

I was talking about dark mind. It is (also) the shortest cooldown in its class and has functions in everything except trash pulls. Which is, again, why i didnt dispute your dungeon trash pull '75% of the time' comment. Dark mind is utterly amazing in everything that isnt million mob trash pull. Downplaying it as 'effectively not existing' is completely disingenous for one of the strongest mitigation skills in the game.

We are just going to have to agree to disagree on this. My assessment of Dark Mind is that it is simply not a powerful enough defensive to warrant being on a 90 second cooldown. Its circumstantially beneficial nature would be perfectly justifiable if it didn't take so long to come back up.

Having said all this, part of the reason I don't really care that Dark Mind isn't the greatest is just how strong TBN is. TBN being in DRK's kit more than compensates for that single shortcoming. DRK is balanced around having TBN in its kit. Being what it is, TBN is already one of the strongest (if not THE strongest) mitigation tools in the game. It more than makes up for Dark Mind not being particularly useful some of the time.

[Lanier]

We are just going to have to agree to disagree on this. My assessment of Dark Mind is that it is simply not a powerful enough defensive to warrant being on a 90 second cooldown. Its circumstantially beneficial nature would be perfectly justifiable if it didn't take so long to come back up.

Having said all this, part of the reason I don't really care that Dark Mind isn't the greatest is just how strong TBN is. TBN being in DRK's kit more than compensates for that single shortcoming. DRK is balanced around having TBN in its kit. Being what it is, TBN is already one of the strongest (if not THE strongest) mitigation tools in the game. It more than makes up for Dark Mind not being particularly useful some of the time.

Dark mind is 60 secs. This thread is a just a bunch of misinformation thrown together. How can you expect to be taken seriously if you dont even know the proper numbers?

[Absimiliard]

Dark mind is 60 secs. This thread is a just a bunch of misinformation thrown together. How can you expect to be taken seriously if you dont even know the proper numbers?

Gee, it's almost like writing a message from a phone with a damaged screen is going to lead to the occasional error or something. I'm well aware that it's a 60 second cooldown. Regardless, I still stand by my original assessment that Dark Mind is inadequate in its current form.

The funny part is that obviously Drk isn't hurting too bad. I say this because despite all of the complaints and being the weakest tank in terms of Dps, it is the 2nd most represented tank in savage if you were to take FFLogs as any indication. Although admittedly the variance is only 1% between the 2nd and 3rd with most representation.

People tend to greatly exaggerate the disparity between highest and lowest. It's actually only about 5% even under completely optimal conditions. And really, you can't even reliably say DRK has the lowest DPS. DRK may pull ahead of WAR in certain raid comps or fall behind it in others. Regardless, TBN is such a powerful tool that DRK will probably continue to see heavy use until or unless the number disparity becomes much more significant than it is now.