Dark Knight: 5.0x Feedback Thread

[Freyyy]

i consider the darkside rework making the mechanic so pasive while having a dedicated gauge with living shadow and TBN is a complety waste in every sense, it's a poor desing overall.

What nonsense is that ? The current Darkside is more active than it ever was... In SB it was just toggle and forget. In HW it used to drain your MP but it was still pretty much toggle and forget. Not losing it was solely based on achieving a very basic level of MP management... Just like how it is now, but instead you directly and actively give the buff to yourself and extend it by using an MP-spending ability. It's much more active than both SB and HW. Is it any harder or more complex ? Compared to SB Darkside, yes it is. Compared to HW, it's pretty much the same level of complexity, which is pretty low. Is it really that important ? I don't think so. Devs didn't need to create a new gauge for it but that's not a big deal. Darkside has never been the center of DRK's gameplay.

[DRKoftheAzure]

What nonsense is that ? The current Darkside is more active than it ever was... In SB it was just toggle and forget. In HW it used to drain your MP but it was still pretty much toggle and forget. Not losing it was solely based on achieving a very basic level of MP management... Just like how it is now, but instead you directly and actively give the buff to yourself and extend it by using an MP-spending ability. It's much more active than both SB and HW. Is it any harder or more complex ? Compared to SB Darkside, yes it is. Compared to HW, it's pretty much the same level of complexity, which is pretty low. Is it really that important ? I don't think so. Devs didn't need to create a new gauge for it but that's not a big deal. Darkside has never been the center of DRK's gameplay.

Compare it to DRG's Blood of the Dragon, and say it's still complex. I dare you.

[Freyyy]

Compare it to DRG's Blood of the Dragon, and say it's still complex. I dare you.

I said multiple times in my post that it wasn't complex and that it has never been because it's not the center of DRK's gameplay. What the hell even is this response ? Have you played DRG since SB ? BotD has nothing complex it's literally just toggle it on for free and do your rotation then everything automatically comes together with little to no thought process involved. In case you lose it (oh god), you can freely reapply it instantly because it has a very short CD. BotD used to be a bit complex in HW but not since SB.

HW Darkside allowed you to bank mana for future fights at the cost of its 12% damage bonus. This was common towards the ends of AoE pulls, when down to too few mobs for your AoEs to be worth its mana cost against so few, at which point you'd start readying for the next mass-pull by dropping Darkside and Syphon-comboing (be it into SE or Delirium). You could also drop it for any periods of pure downtime 3 or more server ticks long. Given that you ShB DRK essentially cannot drop it, it allows no such banking, and it encourages little to no downtime-awareness, I have no issues calling HW Darkside more complex or active than ShB's.

Yeah I should have accounted for that. It doesn't make for much more complexity though. It's just toggle it off when downtime is big enough (which wasn't that often) and toggle it back on when boss comes back. I'm not accounting for dungeons when I'm talking about job complexity either, but I guess you could since a majority of the playerbase doesn't do anything other than dungeons anyway.

It doesn't contradict the fact that ShB Darkside is still more active (active doesn't mean complex!) than both of its previous iterations since you get it by regularly pressing a button that deals damage and spends resource instead of just toggling it on at the start (and sometimes off and back on again in HW when downtime was sufficient during a fight). It also doesn't contradict the fact that Darkside has never been a complex mechanic to begin with so I don't see any reason why it should become so in ShB.

I'm pretty sure that's because of the gauge. If devs didn't decide to give it that fancy timer people wouldn't mind it at all. With that said, I would personally like it if they made it more complex because I like complex jobs (I've even posted suggestions on these forums for that prior to ShB's release), but I don't think that it's a groundbreakingly needed change. Other things are more important for DRK right now (like LD for example).

Sorry for the late answers to these, haven't been looking at the forums much these days.

[Shurrikhan]

It doesn't contradict the fact that ShB Darkside is still more active (active doesn't mean complex!) than both of its previous iterations since you get it by regularly pressing a button that deals damage and spends resource instead of just toggling it on at the start.

It used to use one button. Now it uses none. It remains a non-decision that has no means of failure except by forgetting to activate it at the start of the fight, which has since become... less punishing, if that's somehow a measure of anything. I fail to see any difference except that it lacks the aforementioned minor complexity you just admitted HW Darkside had and ShB Darkside does not.

That's not to say I wish to waste a button on it. I'd rather have ShB's Darkside design over SB's given that the latter was already a non-mechanic. But you're not going to convince me that ShB Darkside is somehow more "active" than HW DRK's by going from 'barely a mechanic' to 'something entirely autonomous'.

I would not be able to tell the difference between the mechanic being removed completely and potencies increased by 10% save that I could hold onto Edge of Shadow for one further GCD or server MP tick, whichever would come first.

I'd gladly point out that we could basically say the same for Enochian, Greased Lightning, and Blood of the Dragon save that they require further button-spam, but fellow non-mechanics don't make the one any better.

[Freyyy]

snip

I actually agree with you on everything you're saying. I think we basically just don't mean the same thing with the word "active". Things like that happen sometimes and I may be the one mistaking then. Might be just a "feel" thing.

_________________________


I'd like to respond on the TBN issue that has been discussed a few times recently tho. People wanting it to become free are really starting to worry me. Do you want every job to just do everything for free ? Just press a button anytime and you get things ? How is that fun ? They've already ruined WAR with this mindset, please don't take DRK away.

I don't think that they should reduce or delete TBN's MP cost. I think that they should in fact do the opposite and give the other tanks' equivalents similar "drawbacks" that'd be refunded with proper use of the ability, or at least requirements (and Oath gauge isn't one, might as well be a CD). If you delete every single drawbacks/requirements on every single ability on a job it suddenly becomes way easier and less engaging. Look at what happened to WAR, who used to heavily rely on IB for mitigation. It was a very cool mechanic (and used to be my favourite tank skill in the game in ARR) but instead of expanding the tanking aspect of the class around it they just gave the class Fell Cleave on top of more free and frequent mitigation buttons which made IB obsolete and then outright deleted it in ShB while replacing it with the same thing but... Free, just on a short cooldown and with no damage attached to it (RI).
I think they should've done it the other way around. Reduce the number of CDs (like delete rampart for example), just give us the big 2min CD and the "unique flavor" CD (Camo, DM, Thrill, with a rework for the first two, and give one to PLD), and put a better emphasis on active mitigation directly tied with resources like old IB and TBN. Make it reward good use with a refund of its cost or similar things so that it ends up being (at least) DPS neutral if you don't use it mindlessly and tanks would feel much more unique to eachother. They could have multiple tanking skills that work like that or some of them could be amped by pairing it with something else (like Heart of Stone paired with Brutal Shell, but way better). Instead of giving tanks more abilities that just deal damage without anything else attached to it.

I'm more concerned about these aspects on other tanks right now than anything on DRK. I'm concerned about the evolution of tanking in general in this game. I like ShB's global changes, but I dislike that the tanking aspects of tanks is so same-y and free/passive/without consequences (besides TBN).

[Shurrikhan]

Edit: Confusion cleared up.

I actually agree with you everything you're saying. I think we basically just don't mean the same thing with the word "active". Things like that happen sometimes and I may be the one mistaking then. Might be just a "feel" thing.

I'd like to respond on the TBN issue that has been discussed a few times recently tho. People wanting it to become free are really starting to worry me. Do you want every job to just do everything for free ? Just press a button anytime and you get things ? How is that fun ? They've already ruined WAR with this mindset, please don't take DRK away.

We have yet to argue about Dark Arts, though? The topic of our replies to each other was specifically Darkside, a mechanic entirely separate from TBN.

I've never advocated that TBN should be outright free. Ever. Generally speaking, I've only ever advocated for increased complexity and depth for DRK, not less. I dislike the new Delirium, and much preferred old Inner Release, though I would have preferred that it also double BG generation over its duration so that it had a bit less delay to its effectiveness in dungeons.

Admittedly, separate from any discussion with you, I have advocated that TBN should have a lower %HP absorption -- from 25% to 20% -- for two reasons: (1) it otherwise becomes nearly impossible to pop when badly overgearing dungeons during their forced single-pack pulls (think Twinning first pull), and (2) it's just straight up overpowered at the moment, and I believe its 15-second CD is far more vital to its gameplay than its %HP margin, especially given that even the mere 15% given in SB seemed pretty darn impactful over time. But that's it. You're barking up the wrong tree here. If I've misunderstood, and you've used the second person without reference to the person you've quoted directly prior, I apologize, but for now you appear to be putting words in my mouth that are the exact opposite of my own arguments.

Edit: To be clear, I like the risk-reward component of TBN. I just don't think it should be susceptible to fundamental scaling issues (as above when incoming damage in dungeons at no mitigation, slows, or stuns, are still too low to pop TBN) or, to a far lesser degree, counter-intuitive design (99% use is 100% cost, but mitigating that 1% more gives it... 0 cost). Which is a lot like how I feel about Living Dead (greater maximum HP = harder to pop LD itself in time if precasting for trimmed CD and --far more importantly-- greater WD healing requirement).

[Freyyy]

But that's it. You're barking up the wrong tree here. If I've misunderstood, and you've used the second person without reference to the person you've quoted directly prior, I apologize, but for now you appear to be putting words in my mouth that are the exact opposite of my own arguments.

Edit: To be clear, I like the risk-reward component of TBN. I just don't think it should be susceptible to fundamental scaling issues (as above when incoming damage in dungeons at no mitigation, slows, or stuns, are still too low to pop TBN) or, to a far lesser degree, counter-intuitive design (99% use is 100% cost, but mitigating that 1% more gives it... 0 cost). Which is a lot like how I feel about Living Dead (greater maximum HP = harder to pop LD itself in time if precasting for trimmed CD and --far more importantly-- greater WD healing requirement).

Oh sorry I might have been unclear, I wasn't directing the whole TBN part to you at all. I just wanted to respond to all the people I've seen complain about its MP cost since Xeno mentionned it a few weeks ago. I know that you didn't advocate for that yourself, the only part in my post that was answering to your quote is the very first part. I tend to agree with most of the posts I see from you on these forums. Sorry if it seemed like I was directing this towards you. I just edited the post to better seperate both parts.

[RadicalPesto]

Compare it to DRG's Blood of the Dragon, and say it's still complex. I dare you.

Shadowbringers traits have turned Blood of the Dragon into basically a toggle with a duration identical to its cooldown, meaning that in the very unlikely case you drop it, it can be instantly reapplied.

BotD is in practice just as simple and lacking in interaction as Darkside is, specially now that Life of the Dragon also starts as a 30s timer instead of copying your remaining BotD duration.

[Shurrikhan]

What nonsense is that ? The current Darkside is more active than it ever was... In SB it was just toggle and forget. In HW it used to drain your MP but it was still pretty much toggle and forget. Not losing it was solely based on achieving a very basic level of MP management... Just like how it is now, but instead you directly and actively give the buff to yourself and extend it by using an MP-spending ability. It's much more active than both SB and HW. Is it any harder or more complex ? Compared to SB Darkside, yes it is. Compared to HW, it's pretty much the same level of complexity, which is pretty low. Is it really that important ? I don't think so. Devs didn't need to create a new gauge for it but that's not a big deal. Darkside has never been the center of DRK's gameplay.

HW Darkside allowed you to bank mana for future fights at the cost of its 12% damage bonus. This was common towards the ends of AoE pulls, when down to too few mobs for your AoEs to be worth its mana cost against so few, at which point you'd start readying for the next mass-pull by dropping Darkside and Syphon-comboing (be it into SE or Delirium). You could also drop it for any periods of pure downtime 3 or more server ticks long. Given that you ShB DRK essentially cannot drop it, it allows no such banking, and it encourages little to no downtime-awareness, I have no issues calling HW Darkside more complex or active than ShB's.

[shao32]

What nonsense is that ? The current Darkside is more active than it ever was... In SB it was just toggle and forget. In HW it used to drain your MP but it was still pretty much toggle and forget. Not losing it was solely based on achieving a very basic level of MP management... Just like how it is now, but instead you directly and actively give the buff to yourself and extend it by using an MP-spending ability. It's much more active than both SB and HW. Is it any harder or more complex ? Compared to SB Darkside, yes it is. Compared to HW, it's pretty much the same level of complexity, which is pretty low. Is it really that important ? I don't think so. Devs didn't need to create a new gauge for it but that's not a big deal. Darkside has never been the center of DRK's gameplay.

Active? After the first edge I forget about darkside exist since how redundant the mechanic has become, the difference of current darkside and a trait that boost you damage is zero since it's impossible to fade off, the large amount of time each egde/flood adds make it impossible, HW darkside was way more interactive thant this bcs you entire gameplay was around the MP generated and drain by darkside, and SB while actually becoming pretty redundant saddly still you can play with it in downtimes, in SHB it's jus a gauge number that you don't even bother to look bcs you have a surplus of darkside time, there is no planing around the timer, there is no interaction with other skills, it's just a flat 10% damage up that only a donkey will let fade off.

I will compared current darkside to HW one more closely ok?

In HW you turn it on, adds damage to all you skills and drain you MP in the process, if you run out of MP you lose it and you have to reapply the skill, simple right? The MP economy was affected by darkside, allows the execution of several skills of you set and prevent get mp from external sources, so if you lose darkside you can't execute several essential skills and lose the damage buff but you can recover MP naturally and from others.

SHB darkside, adds a 10% damage buff to everything, every edge/flood adds 30s, that's it, a generic flat damage buff that you don't bother to timing.

On both case you have to keep it but in HW Darkside interact with how you manage the job in many aspects, the second one no bcs of the surplus of edge and time make any edge/flood planing usage around darkside inexistent and the lack of any secondary effects to you skills just make it boring overall.

See the difference? In the past you have to keep attention to darkside and the effects of the skill to have a optimal management of the buff, current one no, you depend more of TA to plan you MP usage that darkside aka the gauge is pretty but useless, WAR will have more usage of a gauge like that for eye that DRK