(ShB Spoilers) Didn't Hydaelyn, uh...

[Edax]

Yes he doesn't know and neither do we...and...?

When it happens again, they wouldn't be able to solve their own problems. Again. And their civilization will collapse. Again.

My point is just because a horrible event happened that's only one problem by their account that caused real dissent.

That doesn't mean they deserve to be raised from the dead on the sacrifices of the living.

And I already stated civilizations fall.

Usually the result of some terrible flaw, which is why you don't want a carbon copy restored.

After the Sundering we have had MANY. I mean we could debate on the Ascian influence of those conflicts, but it is debatable as to whether the world was gonna be all Bob Ross.

Moral relativism. Civilizations that completely destroyed themselves from their own conflict are worse then civilizations that have endured multiple conflicts.

[Absimiliard]

When it happens again, they wouldn't be able to solve their own problems. Again. And their civilization will collapse. Again.

The collapse of their civilization was a direct result of a sound from inside the planet driving their powers out of control. Their loss of control created a self-sustaining cycle with their growing fear wherein their powers went from uncontrolled to running completely rampant. Zodiark dealt with the cause of the sound as part of his initial summoning.

Usually the result of some terrible flaw, which is why you don't want a carbon copy restored.

A civilization that survived for eons without any discernible conflict is significantly less flawed than the petty, selfish creatures inhabiting the world today.

Moral relativism. Civilizations that completely destroyed themselves from their own conflict are worse then civilizations that have endured multiple conflicts.

Their civilization was only destroyed after countless tragedies befell them. And even then, it took a minority of their remaining population deciding to summon what was essentially a light-themed Zodiark copy to actually finalize their downfall. We've no clue how much time passed between Zodiark's first and second summonings, let alone when the Convocation decided it appropriate to sacrifice countless lesser lifeforms to revive their sapient brethren.


As for moral relativism, that's actually kind of key to seeing the overarching plots from both sides at this point. Expecting wholly alien life - which Ascians would certainly qualify as - to operate off of the same set of morals and balances as we do is quite unreasonable. Emet-Selch views current extant Spoken races as broken, flawed shells of what they originally were. He considers them to be little more than insects in the grand scheme - and to the eyes of an immortal being with near-godlike power, that may actually be a valid point of view. It's a lot easier to destroy something if you see it as a non-entity. Here in the real world we don't hesitate to swat a fly, after all. Granted that fly can't carry on a conversation with us, but the comparison is largely the same in terms of actual power and knowledge.

[Kokomi]

Emet-Selch views current extant Spoken races as broken, flawed shells of what they originally were. He considers them to be little more than insects in the grand scheme - and to the eyes of an immortal being with near-godlike power, that may actually be a valid point of view. It's a lot easier to destroy something if you see it as a non-entity. Here in the real world we don't hesitate to swat a fly, after all. Granted that fly can't carry on a conversation with us, but the comparison is largely the same in terms of actual power and knowledge.

First off, the comparison between how Ascians view us to how humans view animals is flawed. Do animals possess any mental abilities beyond primitive instincts? No, which is why most people think that it's acceptable to (painlessly) end an animal's life. It's not that we are "superior" to them, but rather that we are self-aware and have actual desires beyond pleasure/pain, such as not wanting to die.

From what we've seen, the only respect in which Ascians are god-like is longevity and creation magic. WoL is now 9/14 on the way to being a full Ascian and we are nothing special aside from being remarkably effective at fighting. Strength hardly equals moral high ground.

What I find more interesting is the problem of mortal vs. immortal beings. The easy answer is that whether you can live forever changes nothing, but thinking deeper into that opens up a bad can of worms.

[Edax]

The collapse of their civilization was a direct result of a sound from inside the planet driving their powers out of control. Their loss of control created a self-sustaining cycle with their growing fear wherein their powers went from uncontrolled to running completely rampant. Zodiark dealt with the cause of the sound as part of his initial summoning.

Which resulted in their destruction.

A civilization that survived for eons without any discernible conflict is significantly less flawed than the petty, selfish creatures inhabiting the world today.

Moral relativism. Civilizations that completely destroyed themselves from their own conflict are perhaps worse then civilizations that have endured multiple conflicts. The petty and selfish desires of those inhabiting the world may have created a less flawed civilization then the Ancients. The selflessness of the Ancients may very well have been their downfall, as perhaps they did not value their own lives enough to allow their civilization to endure. Greed is just an extension of self-preservation it could be argued that lacking this is a fatal flaw.

As for moral relativism, that's actually kind of key to seeing the overarching plots from both sides at this point. Expecting wholly alien life - which Ascians would certainly qualify as - to operate off of the same set of morals and balances as we do is quite unreasonable. Emet-Selch views current extant Spoken races as broken, flawed shells of what they originally were. He considers them to be little more than insects in the grand scheme - and to the eyes of an immortal being with near-godlike power, that may actually be a valid point of view. It's a lot easier to destroy something if you see it as a non-entity. Here in the real world we don't hesitate to swat a fly, after all. Granted that fly can't carry on a conversation with us, but the comparison is largely the same in terms of actual power and knowledge.

Emet-Selch has done the same to humanity. Expecting wholly alien life - which humanity would certainly qualify against the Ancients - to live by the same set of morals and balances as they did is unreasonable. The Ancients are little more then footnotes in history. They had their chance. The Ancients are a non-entity, no more then a memory. In comparison, the civilizations of humanity are superior in nearly every way because they are still alive. The legacy of the Ascians is failure. Failure to deal with their Calamity, failure to deal with Hydaelyn, failure in the Thirteenth, failure at dealing with Thordan, failure to stop the Warrior of Light, leaving all but one Ancient DEAD.

[Kokomi]

The legacy of the Ascians is failure. Failure to deal with their Calamity, failure to deal with Hydaelyn, failure in the Thirteenth, failure the deal with Thordan, failure to stop the Warrior of Light, leaving all but one Ancient DEAD.

You're forgetting that WoL is an Ascian.

[Edax]

You're forgetting that WoL is an Ascian.

No, the WoL is not.
A: Fragmented Ancient soul makes the WoL a member of Humanity.
B: That Ancient soul the WoL has may have been opposed to the Ascians originally and summoned Hydaelyn.

[Kokomi]

No, the WoL is not.
A: Fragmented Ancient soul makes the WoL a member of Humanity.
B: That Ancient soul the WoL has may have been opposed to the Ascians originally and summoned Hydaelyn.

A fragmented Ascian is still an Ascian. Opposing the Ascians tempered by Zodiark doesn't mean WoL is suddenly not an Ascian.

I actually love how the Ascians are responsible for their own downfall in the present day. First the fact that their greatest enemy, WoL, is one of them, and second that the 7 rejoinings have continually powered us up culminating in how we were able to defeat Emet-Selch.

[QT_Melon]

No. They SUCEEDED with the Calamity. They overcame it. They failed to agree on HOW to proceed after they even restored life.

Their dealing was far from a failure considering we wouldn't have a story if it was the case.

Hydaelyn was the one that dubbed the Ancient race (leftover) Ascians.

I mean depending on ppls viewpoints since EVERYTHING save 3 got sundered. It's like the WoL and some others didn't want someone taking the ball and toys in hopes of what may or may not be a trade and kicked the sandbox breaking all the pieces.

[Edax]

A fragmented Ascian is still an Ascian. Opposing the Ascians tempered by Zodiark doesn't mean WoL is suddenly not an Ascian.

Ancient ≠ Ascian

No. They SUCEEDED with the Calamity. They overcame it. They failed to agree on HOW to proceed after they even restored life.

Their solution destroyed them. That's the point I keep trying to make.

[Ardox]

A fragmented Ascian is still an Ascian. Opposing the Ascians tempered by Zodiark doesn't mean WoL is suddenly not an Ascian.

I actually love how the Ascians are responsible for their own downfall in the present day. First the fact that their greatest enemy, WoL, is one of them, and second that the 7 rejoinings have continually powered us up culminating in how we were able to defeat Emet-Selch.

"Ascian" is the name use to describe the Ancient that were tempered by Zodiark. As of yet, we don't know if Zodiark tempered all Ancients, and if so, it would make the summoning of Hydelyn really curious since tempered souls devote their life for their primal. We also don't know if tempering cease at dead, if it persists once the soul return to the life stream.