(ShB Spoilers) Didn't Hydaelyn, uh...

[QT_Melon]

People keep saying murder, but murder is an intentional act. Do we have any reason to think the Sundering was actually planned? IIRC there's nothing to imply that Hydaelyn intentionally broke the universe. I've been working under the assumption that it was an unintended side effect.

By Elidibus words in dialog it was. But she was also given the power to sunder Then you have the 3 Ascians outside of the sundering with a big bone to pick for it being done in the first place.

Oblivion has claimed him...
Emet-Selch...gone. Lahabrea...gone. I alone remain─the last of the unbroken.
Once more, I am moved to reevaluate the potential of these tattered souls.
Ah, Zenos. Never did I dream you could overpower me so completely, possessed as I was of your body, and all its uncanny strength...
And now that I have shared with you the truth of this world and its reflections, who can predict how events will unfold? ...Not I.
“Emissary”... What a poor jest that title has become. The flow of history has become muddied, its currents wild beyond my capacity to direct them.
You have wrested the advantage, Hydaelyn. The thieving hands of Your disciples tighten their grip on our star.
The origins of the world remain hidden and its inhabitants ignorant of their broken existence, just as You and Your creators desired.
They celebrate the gift of imperfect life─uncaring, unknowing as we weaken and fade.
But do not imagine Yourself rid of us.
Though Your champion has indeed proven the most egregious obstacle to our ascendance─a barbed thorn in my side─she may yet be removed and cast into the abyss.
Oh yes...it can be done. I will keep these “heroes” mired in the First, and victory will be ours at the last.
Warriors of Darkness now, are they? Then their fate is decided.
They shall meet the same end as those who came before─death at the hands of Warriors of Light!

[Ariane]

Could you elaborate on this a bit? Emet-Selch explicitly states that the Sundering resulted in everyone losing more or less all their memories of their previous lives, while of course their souls (and possibly bodies?) were also maimed/transformed in the process. Both this and the rejoining are basically processes where the identity of the victim is lost, but the spiritual essence is retained, though changed. I wouldn't dispute that the rejoining is also murder, but what leads you to conceptualize one as death, but not the other?

Well they somehow were able to make murals about it, and Emet-Selch even says there was a time when everyone understood what the murals depict.

[Stepjam]

The world being split may have been an unintended side effect of Zodiark's fall

[RopeDrink]

How would that not be evil?

Not sure why you're asking. The answer was already explained. I never condoned Emet's actions but it's nice to be impartial while evaluating them, rather than resort to the completely predictable "How can you not see it as evil?" line. Reacting like that is normal considering the context, but you're meant to look beyond it to see their PoV. He tried to make you see it, but as expected, nobody would. The cost always was and will always be too great to the sharded (and most players) even if you sympathize with him. A good example is the "Ergo, I do not regard you as truly alive therefore I will not be guilty of murder if I kill you" line. It is not difficult to imagine how people reacted to this line, regardless of whether they liked or disliked Emet himself. It would be the odd awkward laugh, but mostly disgust. However, knowing what we know now, we can understand WHY he said it and why (from his PoV) it was a totally natural thing for him to say.

From our POV, we didn't ask for what happened - heck, even if we had, we wouldn't remember anyway - and have been enjoying our own unique lives ever since. So, to be casually snuffed out in order to reform a split-race seems ghastly, more-so when you account for how many lives this will happen to. So yes, as I said, anyone with any kind of intelligence/sentience (without Ascian influence or insane fanaticism) will default this as an atrocious and unquestionably evil act, no questions asked, no room for debate. As expected, this is how the Scion's view it, how most characters would view it, and how (I imagine) most players would view it. It makes sense from our PoV, even if you sympathize with Emet's plight.

From their perspective, their lives were taken from them as a result of their attempt to prevent the world from being annihilated. We can debate how good/bad those decisions were, but it's not hard to imagine that there was likely very little time to reach such conclusions. They gave the world its own will and were essentially kinda-saved by a primal, then tried to devise a manner in which to restore things to how they were before, leading to a belief-divide, to Hyde, to "Enjoy your free sundering". Unfortunately for the survivors, it is not a situation where you can say "It's in the past, let it go", because (to them) there is a clear and achievable method to restore things to how it was, ghastly though it may seem to pretty much everyone else. Everyone else, to them, are just measly portions of the originals that are barely worth their time. It'd be different if people were dead, gone, finito, no rejoining process, no alternatives - then a "get over it" speech by these 14th's would be appropriate. Having said that, we also can't be certain that a rejoining would actually achieve their desired result (we may never know) - but still, they have something to strive for which we can only assume might actually work to some degree - something that could give their lives back, put us in the form we started in, even if it means losing an unfathomable number of fragmented lives.

To them, we're the villains, clinging to a fleeting life-cycle that has seen its own fair-share of similar calamities - more, even - all thanks to a divided believe and a pesky alt-primal with dilusion powers.

[Alleo]

The days prior to the Sundering were ones of monstrous act after monstrous act being performed under circumstances where pretty much every conceivable course of action was a bad one. Summoning Zodiark and the methods for doing so were unconscionable, and yet at the same time I can't really fault the Council for doing so (at least, at our current understanding of the situation).

I do wonder if we ever learn that summoning Zodiark truly was the only option at that time or if maybe some (including the 14th) had other ways to do it without the need to create such a being. At least I would hope that the 14th did not just leave their ranks without at least pointing out other ways. Why I do believe that? Well our characters and the scions have a way to find other paths that lead to less destruction or none at all. Maybe some of those Ancient ones even warned about the consequences, maybe some even tried to help before the calamity was at Amaurots door.

Of course when its at the door summoning Zodiark might have been the only way and at least those that went out, went out willingly. (Of course it is interesting that Zodiarks summoners needed others to sacrifice themselves while Hydealyn summoners seemingly used their own life for it. Already quite a difference imo) So I dont necessarily blame them for it. But anything after that, when everything was restored was the Ascians faults and were not necessary at all. They were pure selfish acts. They were ready to plan the murder of all the future generations of the new life.

I remain curious if we ever get to know why they choose the sundering. Of course one reason could be that Zodiark was much too strong and in a way much to integrated into the planet to destroy him. But maybe they had to do it to stop any future calamity from happening again. Maybe those that summoned her found out more about the sound and what started it, maybe they realized how terrible wrong such a huge power can be, especially after all the death and destruction the people had seen and thus this was another reason on why they somehow gave her the power to split the essence of everything. (I doubt that this happened on pure luck)

For me at least the choice was between letting everyone that will be born die or take away their memories and split their power but at least give them a chance to live a life. The latter might not have been the best decision too but I dont see it as murder at all.

@RopeDrink:

Ah it seems that I have misunderstood your other post then. It sounded more like people seeing it as bad are wrong about it but now I understand your points better.

And yes I can understand Emets pain and even though I disagree with Alisaie that they might have done the same in their place I can see where they come from but at the same time the more I knew the more I had a hard time holding onto that sympathy. They saved the world thanks to Zodiark and the big amount of sacrifice and then afterwards suddenly did not want to accept that. And as far as we know they only wanted those Amaurotines back, not all the others that they did not help and that died before that too. (Seemingly also ancient ones) If the story had told us that the spoken races came from out of space after that calamity and together with Hydealyn killed of the last Ancient ones and sundered the stars then I could quite understand their actions more (but as you said, this still does not change the fact that the people now are not at fault for this) but the Ancients ones were still there. They still could have risen again. Their planet was save and full of life again. But instead they only held onto the past and of course only on those that also lived in Amaurot. And then it was other Ancient ones that said: No, enough is enough.

I just wonder: Would they have gone the same way if they had not been tempered?

[LineageRazor]

Well they somehow were able to make murals about it, and Emet-Selch even says there was a time when everyone understood what the murals depict.

Remember that Emet-Selch has made numerous attempts to try to connect with mortals. In those very early days, Lahabrea and Elidibus may have, as well. They could have communicated with people on the Shards in those early days, studied them, tried to figure out how the new world order worked, and whether it might be best to just accept it. Obviously, they came to the conclusion that "it's gotta go", but they certainly could have told those early people stories of Zodiark, Hydaelyn, the Great City, and the Sundering that ended it all, stories which those people then recreated as artwork.

[JeanneOrnitier]

The world being split may have been an unintended side effect of Zodiark's fall

That's what I assumed too. When Hydaelyn did her splitting magic on Zodiark to seal him it also affected the world unintentionally, since Zodiark was the will of the star.

[Ardox]

Well they somehow were able to make murals about it, and Emet-Selch even says there was a time when everyone understood what the murals depict.

And Ascians could have tried to make them remember before going the genocidal route.. I don't think it means anything really

Remember that Emet-Selch has made numerous attempts to try to connect with mortals. In those very early days, Lahabrea and Elidibus may have, as well. They could have communicated with people on the Shards in those early days, studied them, tried to figure out how the new world order worked, and whether it might be best to just accept it. Obviously, they came to the conclusion that "it's gotta go", but they certainly could have told those early people stories of Zodiark, Hydaelyn, the Great City, and the Sundering that ended it all, stories which those people then recreated as artwork.

welp.. I should have read the whole thread before posting

[LineageRazor]

The world being split may have been an unintended side effect of Zodiark's fall

That's what I assumed too. When Hydaelyn did her splitting magic on Zodiark to seal him it also affected the world unintentionally, since Zodiark was the will of the star.

The problem is exactly that: we assumed. We didn't know for certain then, and we STILL don't know for certain, now.

I originally thought of Hydaelyn as a benevolent goddess; if she split the world, it wasn't on purpose. Now, though, it seems that Hy is actually a Primal, working to fulfill the desires of her creators. Since we know very little about her creators, but we DO know they were in incredibly dire straits, the things Hydaelyn might be capable of are a lot less clear...

[Yuriane]

There are some things I dont think everyone is really grasping some core concepts. We're pointing out that the Sundering may have been unintentional and that's fair, if I cut my brother in half I wouldn't expect all my nieces to suddenly get split in half as well. There's also the very real possibility Hydaelyn did know it would happen, but as she was a carbon copy Light variant of Zodiark believed she could keep everything stable but was too weak after the fight.

But there are some more important aspects of Hydaelyn that must be taken into account. The first being, Hydaelyn is not a person. She's a Primal. And that's a very important distinction, Primals are simulacrum. They are essentially super advanced magical A.I. They don't have any true will of their own, the closest any Primal has ever come to have done so was Ramuh and that was only in-so-far as he was summoned using the image of a wise sage thus he's capable of understanding that Tempering is antithetical to the protection of the Twelveswood. Or Alexander, summoned to be a literal fortress sized super computer oriented towards preservation, thus capable of understanding his existence is antithetical to the preservation of the Star.

Hydaelyn was summoned under these instructions:
- Resist Zodiark's Tyranny
- Preserve the new developing life

And it's not a stretch she was also instructed to NOT be like Zodiark and be a tyrant.

They pretty much just coded a program and hoped it would work. And we also have to remember Hydaelyn is the SECOND Primal. All of Hyaelyn's mistakes and mishaps aren't the result of her being evil, or even from her being a person and thus fallible. It's the result of her essentially being the second magical robot ever and thus not being incredibly well refined. Arguments about good and evil are irrelevant because Zodiark and Hydaelyn are basically just flawed AI.

What this does bring up is the conversation of what is evil in FFXIV? Ran'jit? Zenos? The Three Ascians of the Source were Tempered but we can't be sure that recruited Ascians such as Nabriales or Igeyorm were so are they evil? Is the evil in FFXIV the herd mentality of Empires in the form of the Garleans and Allagans following the order of their leaders to kill thousands without question? It's a theme I don't think many people have picked up on in FFXIV, "evil" isn't that simple.