(ShB Spoilers) Didn't Hydaelyn, uh...

[Kokomi]

Arguments about good and evil are irrelevant because Zodiark and Hydaelyn are basically just flawed AI.

That's true, I guess there's still the question of whether 1) Sundering = killing the original souls that are shattered and 2) if Hydaelyn's creators knew it was going to happen when Zodiark was defeated. 99% sure that this will be dealt with by the Sundering being either an unintentional side effect or they had no choice, it was the lesser or two evils.

It's a theme I don't think many people have picked up on in FFXIV, "evil" isn't that simple.

I think FFXIV makes it pretty clear what sort of actions are good vs. bad in the story. Does doing bad things make you evil? Maybe not, if your intentions are good - that seems to be as deep as it gets.

[Absimiliard]

Stuff

A few observations here:
- Primals do typically have a will of their own. While yes, it is shaped largely by their summoners, Ramuh and Alexander are not the only ones to choose a different path. Odin was originally summoned to be a destroyer but chose the life of a simple warrior, wandering from place to place in search of a true challenge. It is his fondest wish that one of his deaths at last leave Zantetsuken depleted so that he can finally end.
- Barring a retcon, Hydaelyn does indeed possess a will of her own. Everything she's done, she's done so because she chose it. It's debatable whether defeating Zodiark also falls under this, however. We can't ascertain whether or not her will came after her summoners had been essentially unmade by the sundering.
- The vast majority of the Spoken races present in the world of Final Fantasy XIV are sundered Ascian souls. Only the lesser races would perish in resurrecting the Ascians within Zodiark.
- Near as anyone can tell (and as hinted by official sources) the Ascians still have their own free will. Whatever Zodiark tempering them did, robbing them of the ability to make their own decisions apparently was not part of it.
- It stands to reason that life as a whole would be better for everyone if the rejoining were allowed to proceed unimpeded. No one would ever be sick, hungry, homeless or impoverished again. There would be no wars, no pain, no conflict of any sort beyond harmless intellectual debate. Everyone would again live in a star-spanning utopian society, a shining future awaiting all those who dwell upon that world.
- Zodiark himself does not appear to have been even the least bit wicked. It sought - unsuccessfully at first - to revitalize the world at the request of his summoners. Finding his power wanting after having already saved the world, the Ascians made a willing sacrifice to give him the necessary strength to carry out their wishes a second time. The convocation wanting to sacrifice the plethora of life that sprang up on their world after Zodiark revitalized it was their decision alone, as was the decision to make another sacrifice. It does not appear that Zodiark ever asked for more souls. Provided this rings true, that would mean Hydaelyn effectively annihilated the only extant sapient species on that world - and the world itself, essentially - for no reason other than the fact that a minority of Ascian society strongly disagreed with using new, non-intelligent life to restore the lives of intelligent, sapient creatures that had made the ultimate sacrifice for their world and their people.

[LineageRazor]

Provided this rings true, that would mean Hydaelyn effectively annihilated the only extant sapient species on that world - and the world itself, essentially - for no reason other than the fact that a minority of Ascian society strongly disagreed with using new, non-intelligent life to restore the lives of intelligent, sapient creatures that had made the ultimate sacrifice for their world and their people.

Just a quick note, here - it is strongly likely that it was not all non-intelligent life. The Spoken races exist on all Shards, and that means that they were around prior to the Sundering. The New Life the Council hoped to sacrifice included these intelligent races - but being mortal and ephemeral as they were, the Council saw them as lesser life forms (I mean, the wretched things all die in a century or so anyway - what kind of existence is that?), and thus not worthy of consideration.

It is quite unlikely that the Dissenters summoned Hydaelyn merely to preserve some trees and deer. There were almost certainly intelligent races included in the reckoning.

[Kokomi]

I honestly want to side with the Ascians (minus the genocide part) but it's tough without more info.

The vast majority of the Spoken races present in the world of Final Fantasy XIV are sundered Ascian souls. Only the lesser races would perish in resurrecting the Ascians within Zodiark.

I don't think this is true - most people possess mortal souls that dissipate into the lifestream once they die (level 50 MSQ quest "What Little Gods are Made Of").

Near as anyone can tell (and as hinted by official sources) the Ascians still have their own free will. Whatever Zodiark tempering them did, robbing them of the ability to make their own decisions apparently was not part of it.

We don't know that Zodiark didn't do other things to tempered Ascians other than making them mindless slaves. Maybe they became unable to do anything that would harm their god and they end up rationalizing this to themselves.

It stands to reason that life as a whole would be better for everyone if the rejoining were allowed to proceed unimpeded.

If we take what Emet said at face value, then yes. Still, this doesn't mean that being shattered is all that bad. There's also that pesky problem of creation magic - if we were to rejoin and stand on equal footing to the Ascians, then we might be in danger of causing another calamity in the same way as the first one.

The Spoken races exist on all Shards, and that means that they were around prior to the Sundering. The New Life the Council hoped to sacrifice included these intelligent races - but being mortal and ephemeral as they were, the Council saw them as lesser life forms (I mean, the wretched things all die in a century or so anyway - what kind of existence is that?), and thus not worthy of consideration.

Good point. I guess instead of just making plants and animals, Zodiark also created new intelligent, but mortal, life. Now we're talking about ending a mortal life to bring back an immortal one (assuming this was possible). Seriously, that is one explosive moral dilemma, although tempering complicates things. The more I think about it, the more I hate how this was brought up in ShB because it's one of those thought experiments that will never happen in the real world but still makes you feel horrible about weighing the value of life.

[Edax]

- It stands to reason that life as a whole would be better for everyone if the rejoining were allowed to proceed unimpeded. No one would ever be sick, hungry, homeless or impoverished again. There would be no wars, no pain, no conflict of any sort beyond harmless intellectual debate. Everyone would again live in a star-spanning utopian society, a shining future awaiting all those who dwell upon that world.

We've seen this Utopian Society for ourselves and it shattered into pieces because it was terribly flawed. To rebuilt it as it was is to doom it to being shattered again. The Ancients were unable to understand their calamity and resorted to "human sacrifice" which ended in a civil war. To remake Amaurot and to restore the souls of it's citizens is to put all the pieces in place to repeat history, meaning all the lives sacrificed for the second chance would have been for nothing.

"Those who fail to learn from history are condemned to repeat it" - Winston Churchill

[QT_Melon]

Well I mean that's the easy thinking way of going about it.

Keep in mind it's been mentioned that was an eternal race. It's not like the event just happened a few days in on their society. Every empire has its rises and falls.

I just feel when people make a point about how flawed they were, they don't even look at how LONG the place has been going on before the problem.

That's why they make it a point to mention the conflicts are happening with short fleeting lives.

IDK - "Terribly Flawed" sounds like hyperbole. They been going on for eons before

[Absimiliard]

Just a quick note, here - it is strongly likely that it was not all non-intelligent life. The Spoken races exist on all Shards, and that means that they were around prior to the Sundering. The New Life the Council hoped to sacrifice included these intelligent races - but being mortal and ephemeral as they were, the Council saw them as lesser life forms (I mean, the wretched things all die in a century or so anyway - what kind of existence is that?), and thus not worthy of consideration.

It is quite unlikely that the Dissenters summoned Hydaelyn merely to preserve some trees and deer. There were almost certainly intelligent races included in the reckoning.

The sundered souls of the Ascians are also present in every shard. There are even fragments of ten of the thirteen Convocation members spread throughout all, as it is those individuals Emet-Selch and his ilk targeted for indoctrination via teaching them about their original selves, their purpose, etc. There is a not insignificant amount of anecdotal evidence suggesting that the Spoken races are indeed a direct result of the sundering.

I don't think this is true - most people possess mortal souls that dissipate into the lifestream once they die (level 50 MSQ quest "What Little Gods are Made Of").

The sundered Ascian souls are processed by the lifestream just like anything else. Every death casts them adrift in the lifestream to have everything they acquired during that mortal life stripped away. There is really no way for the characters, in-universe, to differentiate a sundered Ascian soul from any other type of soul. We cannot prove or disprove the idea of most Spoken having originated with the sundering at this time, though there is some supporting evidence scattered through Norvrandt.

We don't know that Zodiark didn't do other things to tempered Ascians other than making them mindless slaves. Maybe they became unable to do anything that would harm their god and they end up rationalizing this to themselves.

Agreed.

If we take what Emet said at face value, then yes. Still, this doesn't mean that being shattered is all that bad. There's also that pesky problem of creation magic - if we were to rejoin and stand on equal footing to the Ascians, then we might be in danger of causing another calamity in the same way as the first one.

The original calamity wasn't just their powers going out of control, though. A noise originating deep inside the planet caused them to start losing control. This loss of control sparked fear, and the fear caused their already out of control powers to begin running rampant. Whatever Zodiark did to fix the world should probably still be in place unless Hydaelyn decided to undo it for some reason.

Good point. I guess instead of just making plants and animals, Zodiark also created new intelligent, but mortal, life. Now we're talking about ending a mortal life to bring back an immortal one (assuming this was possible). Seriously, that is one explosive moral dilemma, although tempering complicates things. The more I think about it, the more I hate how this was brought up in ShB because it's one of those thought experiments that will never happen in the real world but still makes you feel horrible about weighing the value of life.

We currently have no evidence that anything Zodiark created was sapient.

[Edax]

That's why they make it a point to mention the conflicts are happening with short fleeting lives.

IDK - "Terribly Flawed" sounds like hyperbole. They been going on for eons before

Even after the long years after The Sundering, Emet still has no clue as to who or what triggered their calamity or why it happened.

That's why they make it a point to mention the conflicts are happening with short fleeting lives.

IDK - "Terribly Flawed" sounds like hyperbole. They been going on for eons before

What else could you call the revolt against Zodiark and the Ancient Civil War but a conflict? The Ancients were not in agreement and it destroyed them, so what point is it to say the conflicts are happening with short fleeting lives? And what about the immortal Dragons? They were capable of conflict before/after this mess too. The Dragons may even predate the Ancients.

[Kokomi]

The sundered Ascian souls are processed by the lifestream just like anything else. Every death casts them adrift in the lifestream to have everything they acquired during that mortal life stripped away. There is really no way for the characters, in-universe, to differentiate a sundered Ascian soul from any other type of soul. We cannot prove or disprove the idea of most Spoken having originated with the sundering at this time, though there is some supporting evidence scattered through Norvrandt.

The difference is that a fragment of an Ascian soul doesn't return to ambient aether in the lifestream, it is preserved until that same soul is reborn again. Having everyone be Ascians brings up some problems: that would mean the same souls are being recycled for all eternity and no new life is ever created. This contradicts Minfilia's explanation in the MSQ and I personally think it somewhat cheapens the sacrifices of Moenbryda, Ysayle, Haucherfaut, Papalymo, etc.

I'm not sure this discussion on the difference between whole and sundered souls, and the merits of Amaurotine-like society is going to get anywhere considering how little information was actually presented. Saying things like "the ancient civilization was hopelessly flawed" or "if we are rejoined then we will form a true utopia" are both based on equally little evidence.

[QT_Melon]

Yes he doesn't know and neither do we...and...?

My point is just because a horrible event happened that's only one problem by their account that caused real dissent.

And I already stated civilizations fall.

They apparently had conflict with ONE event in their apparent EONS.

After the Sundering we have had MANY. I mean we could debate on the Ascian influence of those conflicts, but it is debatable as to whether the world was gonna be all Bob Ross.

I don't think a rejoining is a full restoration to utopia either, but I can't feasibly imagine such a long lived race is that flawed if it took too long for it to supposedly implode on itself. If such a flaw was in existence it really should have happened much sooner imo.