Can we talk about how mnk, drg, and blm are blatantly overpowered right now?

[wereotter]

The classes that have raid damage buffs should have more rDPS potential than classes that do not. At the same time, the rDPS potential of all classes, selfish or not, should be balanced to be as close as possible.

Raid damage buffs provide an extra layer of damage potential that should be rewarded when used correctly in a team setting because they can just as easily punish the rDPS contribution of these classes when they are underutilized. Plus, relying on up to 7 other people to maximize the potential of the buff is much more variable than simply executing a solo class to its maximum capabilities.

Ultimately any composition in this landscape would come down to player skill and team synergy. A selfish dps might be more valuable to a team by virtue of removing a layer of optimization to reach the necessary damage output as that player might more easily and consistently reach their maximum damage output. Regardless, keeping the rDPS potentials as close as possible would allow enrages to be set to work for any standard comp, thereby promoting teamwork to find the right fit for each group's skillset.


Of course all of this only works in a world where there aren't any hidden taxes on raising or "being a range."

The concept of a ranged tax is something that in raid actually makes sense. When you consider up time on the boss, melee will have to disengage to do mechanics, and if those mechanics require movement, then casters might also lose up time. Ranged physical, however, never should have to lose up time on a boss. So in theory, if a fight did have 100% up time available, then your ranged DPS should be doing less damage to make up for the fights where casters and melee DPS have to stop attacking, with the goal being that in the end, the two would even out.

That said, I do think that your other point is accurate that Square taxes having a raise too heavily to the point that red mages do pretty pitiful DPS for the benefit of having a cure and a raise. I think that there does need to be some way of balancing out that utility since this is a raid support skill that sometimes will go unused, yet the job will do less damage regardless of if it's used or not, completely unlike how a ninja might do less damage because it has trick attack. The ninja still will get used every fight and raise everyone's damage while raise won't be used once people know a fight.

I like the idea I've seen tossed around that summoner and red mage get a kind of buff from their rotation that is stripped off when they cast a raise, or that casting raise puts a debuff on them for a set period of time. Something that balances out their raise ability, but also doesn't punish them for having it in situations where it's not used.

[KageTokage]

I'm honestly kind of appalled at how much higher MNK's DPS is then NIN's after actually trying the class out using a set of mildly overmelded crafted gear.

I'm getting 12-12.5K consistently, while NIN is generally floating around 10-10.5K even though I have multiple 460/470 pieces.

[Uliq]

I'm honestly kind of appalled at how much higher MNK's DPS is then NIN's after actually trying the class out using a set of mildly overmelded crafted gear.

I'm getting 12-12.5K consistently, while NIN is generally floating around 10-10.5K even though I have multiple 460/470 pieces.

you thought we were complaining for nothing. You can look at the 80 ninja player base and how small it is if you really questioned the authenticity of our complaints.

Did you master the 27 button opener that last 30 seconds just to be out shown by a drg on his second jump, and a smn picking her nose yet? That is always a good time.

[Uliq]

I like the idea I've seen tossed around that summoner and red mage get a kind of buff from their rotation that is stripped off when they cast a raise, or that casting raise puts a debuff on them for a set period of time. Something that balances out their raise ability, but also doesn't punish them for having it in situations where it's not used.

Casting raise is a big enough hit for RDM without any hit at all actually. Raise being considered for its utility for a dps is overated. Casting raise causes RDM a cast, and if they casting off dual cast in which they waste two spells. which is cast time = dps downtime. The hit for the other dps being raised is faced with weakness. Raising on smn is alittle different since doing it when phoenix or Dreadwyrm is active would only cost them 1 hit but it is still dps downtime. A hit for a raise is enough of a trade off since the raised is going to cost dmg anyway. Players shouldn't be taxed for party assist actions that don't buff dmg and should be rewarded for giving up the dmg they do for raising. The penalty should only fall on the person who couldn't mechanics correctly which it does with weakness status.

[Myon88]

The concept of a ranged tax is something that in raid actually makes sense. When you consider up time on the boss, melee will have to disengage to do mechanics, and if those mechanics require movement, then casters might also lose up time. Ranged physical, however, never should have to lose up time on a boss. So in theory, if a fight did have 100% up time available, then your ranged DPS should be doing less damage to make up for the fights where casters and melee DPS have to stop attacking, with the goal being that in the end, the two would even out.

The issue with this is they don't even out. Current fights are so easy, and melees and casters have so many contingency tools, that all fights are practically 100% uptime endeavours for good players. And of course, you balance the game around good players. I don't think ranged would be happy to know they're being taxed because there are mediocre melees and casters out there only getting 50% uptime.

Melees and casters should frankly stop hiding behind their uptime as an excuse for their tuning. BLM is right now the most mobile of all caster jobs, and the only one that can handle movement phases of arbitrary length on demand without losing any dps at all. True north now has 2 charges, MNK in particular has had a lot of its positional work trivialized - the one other thing melees like to point to as a source of 'difficulty'.

It's worth asking why the ranged tax is so large, or why it even exists, if the current fights are not designed to validate its existence at all. Tell me, where is the fight that requires so much movement that ranged are top dps for once? It does not exist, so either the tax is too big, melees and blm are overtuned, or fights are too easy.

[Eliadil]

It's worth asking why the ranged tax is so large, or why it even exists, if the current fights are not designed to validate its existence at all. Tell me, where is the fight that requires so much movement that ranged are top dps for once? It does not exist, so either the tax is too big, melees and blm are overtuned, or fights are too easy.

I'll just recommend trying to do more content with a melee that actually needs to do positionnal, sides and rear. Especially ones that have a dash that when not used properly equals to a dps loss. (Sam as an example, I don't know about dragoon since I've never bothered to actually up one) or even ninja who doesn't have an oGCD "gap closer" except sprint.

You'll actually see that it does require some management. Not just to execute the mechanics properly but for keeping max uptime while still doing positionnals. Because yeah, even if they weren't as important as monk's, not doing them still equals to a dps loss. And two times ten seconds of true north sadly isn't enough to compensate for that.

I can assure you that the amount of positionnal management and uptime is way, way different and way easier for a bard rather than a dragoon, a samurai or even most casters.
Still I do agree that Black Mages have way betters tool to deal with mechanics and mobility than most melee dps... Which is pretty ironic.

[Tenryou]

The issue with this is they don't even out. Current fights are so easy, and melees and casters have so many contingency tools, that all fights are practically 100% uptime endeavours for good players. And of course, you balance the game around good players. I don't think ranged would be happy to know they're being taxed because there are mediocre melees and casters out there only getting 50% uptime.

Melees and casters should frankly stop hiding behind their uptime as an excuse for their tuning. BLM is right now the most mobile of all caster jobs, and the only one that can handle movement phases of arbitrary length on demand without losing any dps at all. True north now has 2 charges, MNK in particular has had a lot of its positional work trivialized - the one other thing melees like to point to as a source of 'difficulty'.

It's worth asking why the ranged tax is so large, or why it even exists, if the current fights are not designed to validate its existence at all. Tell me, where is the fight that requires so much movement that ranged are top dps for once? It does not exist, so either the tax is too big, melees and blm are overtuned, or fights are too easy.

TBH if ranged tax wasn't there we'd go back to 2.0 when bard was so broken party comps were BRD BRD BLM BLM because MELEE ARE A BURDEN or meleeonlyforLB3 brd brd blm. Yeah we have alot more up time in this raid tier and strats are designed to consider melee up time but i for sure don't wanna go back to an era of shunning melees. Also when we are forced off bosses it does hurt us for sure. can't speak much for blms tho not my field of expertise.

[Aomine1992]

you thought we were complaining for nothing. You can look at the 80 ninja player base and how small it is if you really questioned the authenticity of our complaints.

Did you master the 27 button opener that last 30 seconds just to be out shown by a drg on his second jump, and a smn picking her nose yet? That is always a good time.

I took a look at that NIN opener and I was like well I guess I should stop complaining about SMN lol that ish looks ridiculous....while I do appreciate a NIN cause it helps SMNs crappy dps I completely understand the complaints.

[Kabooa]

TBH if ranged tax wasn't there we'd go back to 2.0 when bard was so broken party comps were BRD BRD BLM BLM because MELEE ARE A BURDEN or meleeonlyforLB3 brd brd blm. Yeah we have alot more up time in this raid tier and strats are designed to consider melee up time but i for sure don't wanna go back to an era of shunning melees. Also when we are forced off bosses it does hurt us for sure. can't speak much for blms tho not my field of expertise.

Black mage had everything it needed in Stormblood.

In Shadowbringers it got Xenoglossy and 30s Sharpcast on top of it.

However we run into the same problems - Mistimed use of our movement tools (to optimize damage) leads to greater punishment than just holding onto said tools.

In other words, a Black Mage has everything they need until they don't, and if they don't, it sucks eggs.

[CrashofZenki]

I took a look at that NIN opener and I was like well I guess I should stop complaining about SMN lol that ish looks ridiculous....while I do appreciate a NIN cause it helps SMNs crappy dps I completely understand the complaints.

Try 39 button opener.
27 is the number of off-global cooldown buttons from hide -> suiton at pull (not counting huton or pots.) from engaging boss, until TA effect wears off.
22-23 seconds from suiton hit to TA is off.