Min ilvl setting and people saying this game is too east

[Melichoir]

....

Current scale, ascending in difficulty:

• Lv50/60/70 Dungeons (and lv80 dungeons when Expert eventually evolves)
• "Expert" Dungeons
• Leveling Dungeons
• Alliance Raids (other than CT, which doesn't even belong on the scale)
• "Hard" Trials / Normal Raids
• EX Trials
• Savage
• Ultimate

.....

I think this is a bit skewed though. Consider the list you made - Most of it is older content and with that comes stipulations. Game design evolving being one of them. How certain fights were tuned between then and now is not the same. It is also iLVL is a big part of that consideration. If you go into, lets say, Shinryu EX with 440 iLvL synced, youre gonna get synced to the max iLvL nad that fight is gonna be substantially easier compared to TitaniaEX. Even now, Titania EX is 'easier' compared to when people first started doing it due to iLvL and Eden/'Fanta' gear.

This means the scaling jump you are referring between regular stuff and EX may not be an issue of things jumping up but rather the fact that youre comparing old to new content.

From my perspective, TitaniaEX (King EX cause Titania is to hard to type cause Im lazy...) is an appropriate Jump in difficulty from the End Game Dungeons of Twinning, Amarot and that Research Place. And King EX to Savage is another appropriate jump in difficulty. The jumps between End game to EX to Savage is probably a bit bigger than from lvl 71 dungeons to Mt. Gulg, but it's appropriate as the gear level difference also increases more substantially. I mean you go from 418 to 430 at lvl 80 almost immediately, and can grind to 440 in a day Before even setting foot into King or Inno.

I think people put EX and Savage on a pedastel. Part of that is SEs fault. The curve may not be as smooth because they dont introduce certain mechanics in dungeons (like death walls or petrify markers, etc). But it's not as bad as people think. Its all learnable and not as complicated, especially at the beginning of the tier.

[Shougun]

You're right, I was painting with a bit of a broad stroke on this (specifically referring to a particular thread that keeps popping up on the first page in this forum), and I am by no means saying the current system is anywhere near perfect.

Currently there are a few places where a skill gap could be filled in with more middle-difficulties of content, and I think that'd be interesting to see.

Current scale, ascending in difficulty:

• Lv50/60/70 Dungeons (and lv80 dungeons when Expert eventually evolves)
• "Expert" Dungeons
• Leveling Dungeons
• Alliance Raids (other than CT, which doesn't even belong on the scale)
• "Hard" Trials / Normal Raids
• EX Trials
• Savage
• Ultimate

Up to about EX trials, I think the skill build is pretty well designed and flowing. There is a jump between EX Trials and Savage raids, however, and I'd be all for a difficulty level between the two. In terms of difficulty, I would view EX trials as about on par with 'normal' raids in WoW, and Savage as about on par with late-heroic/early-mythic in WoW...and I'd be all for a 'heroic' equivalent difficulty between for players who want more of a challenge than EX but aren't yet ready for savage. This could also fit well into gearing (for example, the 'heroic' equivalent Eden could drop 460 gear, whereas savage currently drops 470).

(I can't speak as to the jump, if any, from Savage to Ultimate, as I have not yet gotten there [but I will, eventually].)

That said, even this idea does have a problem, though. From my experience in WoW, 'normal' raids became mandatory when progging heroic, because the gear upgrades were still worthwhile, and heroic was still mandatory while progging mythic, for the same reason. (Actually, it was even worse still, with Mythic+ dungeons also being mandatory for some mythic raid prog groups [like the one I left when I quit WoW {again} back in December].) Of course, I believe we have some great people behind the development of this game, and they could probably figure something out.

I appreciate the thought out response, thank you . I can understand frustration to the audience that's begging for everything to be suffering but actually does none of the content they're making "better" to them, and worse for everyone else lol. "Of course you want it harder, you don't even do it!" /rage.

However since the thread, I saw, as a response to another thread that wasn't asking for hardcore content just "more how like it was" because they felt it became too easy and wasn't as fun anymore- I therefore felt the broad stroke wasn't very fair as it didn't really paint the audience this response thread born from in the proper light. That the audience this thread was born from wasn't the audience you were talking about, at least entirely. I'm sure there was a strong middle Venn diagram relationship somewhere in there. Just that I felt like people were getting lumped together like we see in politics and stuff lol, you know that stuff where Jane is like: "I want x" and so Karen goes "unbelievable they want X Y Z upside down on the moon with a gold jump jet" and Jane is just left whip lashed by how far their desire was forcibly morphed away on them.

At least I see it that way since the same suggestion to solution of the other thread and person were all tied together in a short time frame with another fairly related thread. It's fair to say you didn't feel or see that, but then I guess we're talking and not screaming so that's fine.

Definitely if you're doing current content I agree there is good spread of challenge options. Mostly what I'm reading from people (from the thread that I strongly feel made this thread, you may be getting vibes of another- perhaps the Otter King had a multi-thread addressing desire, who knows) is that people are doing the roulette for the roulette rewards and they remember this content being fun and thoughtful but as the ilvl increases and such now it's all brain dead simple (not true for everyone, obviously). Not that they're going "punish, salt in the wounds, death, savage CT or riot" they just want CT to feel like CT again lol. Of course OP said "why not ilvl sync?" but that's why I was trying to say people want the reward of the content and if it's harder maybe a bigger one (because even if we like to act better most of us definitely want the carrot on that stick lol). That was at least what I was trying to get at with the whole cheese mechanics vs normal challenging play, people will do the cheese-er one even if it might take away some of their enjoyment because the carrot and speed to get that carrot are really important even if a bit silly ("I love doing this content" "why don't you do it, like ever?" "because it doesn't give me the good gear. . . ;(").

And of course as said in the post you quoted I don't think we should change that specific roulette's challenge because it serves other purposes (like quick progress for people trying to catch up, less annoying reruns like when you beat a game you might mod it for QoL and some ease, those who just enjoy adventure mode difficulty content and there is nothing wrong with that, and more of course).

To all that I felt it might be fun, for most everyone then, if we perhaps we had a new roulette or more (I was thinking 2-3) that each week made a nice reward bonus (one time clear) and boosted some of the base bonuses (like exp, maybe items and low / mid tier tomes), revitalizing that specific content to be hard like before and perhaps even slightly harder than before. Since most of us all know the mechanics, it's hard to recreate that first few weeks of play otherwise. I thought three might be fun because you'd get two content pieces that were old revitalized with a tighter sync and maybe a mutation or two (and never rolls ex/savage content, this is for people who want to remember old content as being hard-ish but not looking for savage / ex content), and then the third one just being "kill all the PUGs, troll the streamers, death comes for you" (ex/savage and dungeons with a laundry list of mutations only).

[Forever_Learning]

In order for content to be challenging, it needs to be at a level where some people are unable to do it.

But then, the people who can do it, say it’s too easy, while those who cant, request a version at a lower difficulty level. The loop never ends and no amount of difficulty level helps because there is always someone saying too easy and others saying too difficult for any level of content.

At the end of the day, the developer has to decide how many people they want clearing each piece of content cause there will always be upset players.

[HWalsh]

What game AAA game has every rewarded someone with the best weapon available for a random roleplay? Not only is the very idea completely absurd. It renders Savage utterly meaningless. While roleplaying is a nice activity, it's more than a touch insulting players pushing themselves to play the actual game at its highest level can get a weaker reward than someone who could otherwise use discord or even a forum not unlike this one if they so chose.

As someone who roleplays themselves. The "reward" is writing a story and developing my character. Getting an i475 weapon for doing such in game would feel incredibly arbitrary since I'm technically not even playing the game.

Pretty sure it was Ultima Online actually.

Lord British was pretty awesome back in the day to reward RPing. I'm pretty sure something similar happens in Shroud of the Avatar.

That game where the creator, Lord British himself, tweets a congratulations personally to a player who finished the main quest line.

You used the term AAA and you need to remember back in the wild west of MMOs there were games like UO, AC, EQ, and even before that were games like LOFP which had life GMs running events. Not everything was about raiding - Heck, a lot of early games didn't even HAVE raiding.

TRO (which is still running) also did events like I mentioned.

-----

There was one incident that I heard of in UO where a "player" was calling for help while fighting a monster. While many players passed him by (one even watched him be killed) this was repeated numerous times.

Finally someone stepped in to defend him - The "player" revealed himself to be a God and gave the hero a unique weapon. A sword I believe. If the story holds true (and since UO was known for crazy stuff like this) it was said to be a sword only a "true" hero could use. It couldn't be looted off of the bear's corpse.

[HyoMinPark]

Not everything was about raiding - Heck, a lot of early games didn't even HAVE raiding.

Except, this game has raiding. You cannot start awarding BiS-tier gear to anyone outside of Savage-tier content because then it renders the harder content irrelevant. You have to balance around that because this game HAS raiding. It doesn’t matter what past games that didn’t have raiding did: they clearly didn’t have to worry about balancing gear if there was no such thing as Savage to award BiS-tier items. You can’t apply what they did to this game and expect it to work.

[HWalsh]

Except, this game has raiding. You cannot start awarding BiS-tier gear to anyone outside of Savage-tier content because then it renders the harder content irrelevant. You have to balance around that because this game HAS raiding. It doesn’t matter what past games that didn’t have raiding did: they clearly didn’t have to worry about balancing gear if there was no such thing as Savage to award BiS-tier items. You can’t apply what they did to this game and expect it to work.

I didn't say they had to do that here, it was an example of what I saw in another game to reward RP. For FF XIV I could see awarding a rare BiS item with a unique skin once in a while. So long as it is rare then no raider will be butt hurt that some filthy RPer got an item they didn't "earn" they "earned it" in a different way.

[HyoMinPark]

I didn't say they had to do that here, it was an example of what I saw in another game to reward RP. For FF XIV I could see awarding a rare BiS item with a unique skin once in a while. So long as it is rare then no raider will be butt hurt that some filthy RPer got an item they didn't "earn" they "earned it" in a different way.

You fail to realize that a lot of RPers have very little need or desire for BIS, as a lot of them don’t participate in content and prefer to spend a lot of their time roleplaying instead. And there’s nothing wrong with that. The items would be more or less wasted on them. So I don’t think your suggested items have any place in this game, and I would be saying this to you regardless of being a raider or not.

You’re also still suggesting a BIS item to drop outside of harder-tier content, which, I direct you again to what I said about balancing gear drops. Didn’t WoW start offering BiS-tier gear in lower-end content? And isn’t that a factor contributing to its current crisis/decline?


I disagree with your notions that activities people enjoy (i.e., RPing) deserve super special rewards. Participating in said activity is usually more than enough for players that actively enjoy them. As for your other examples you provided (helping newbies, community building, crafting/gathering), I already explained to you that those had rewards existing in-game.

—Helping newbies: Mentor Roulette offers titles, glamour items, and a two-seater mount for participating.
—Community-building: this one I didn’t touch too much on (another poster did), but I think it’s self-rewarding. You build a community, perhaps a small FC, and you make a bunch of friends and spend time together doing things you enjoy. I think that’s more than enough reward.
—Crafting/gathering: money, self-sufficiency, and there are special Blessed tools released every expansion that have endgame-tier stats, are shiny, and tend to sparkle to reflect how super awesome they are.


EDIT because posting limits:

So, it's okay for RPers to get nothing because they enjoy RPing... But raiders... Who enjoy raiding... They should get special rewards.

Doesn't that seem... How do I put it...

Ya know, reading it, I'm sure you'll see what it looks like...

I think it looks like you trying to twist words to fit a rhetoric.


Raiding is (relatively) difficult content that rewards its players with better gear to challenge the later floors with. It takes a certain amount of skill to clear these raids Week 1 with mostly crafted gear (which is essentially minimum item level for the content). The gear rewards from it (as well as Tomestone gear purchases) are to improve performance to make clearing easier for those who may actually need or those who want the comfiness of higher item level gear (no, this isn’t meant to be a jab at them—clearing Week 1 is extremely tight even for skilled players, and some raiders would rather be more casual about it and clear with comfiness as opposed to minimum item level stress for the higher floors).

That said, our gear is obsolete every other patch anyways. They last only so long as they’re needed for the Ultimates at that point.


Roleplaying is a leisurely activity that doesn’t need super special awesome rare BiS weapon rewards tied to it, which are all your suggestions are for it. At most, glamour can be a reward for it...and glamour options are added to this game each patch (see: the Indigo set, the new set that is made with mats from the new map dungeon, which seems to have 2 versions). Why should RPers get BiS weapons as rewards? It’s simply not needed because most don’t participate in content that would even call for it.

I wouldn’t say they get nothing—there’s plenty of glamour and housing items that they get and can use to further their RP experience, and these items are probably more valued by them compared to BiS weapons or gear. Have you ever been to Balmung or Mateus to see some of the RP cafes or the like that players design out of their houses? All that said, I still don’t think many, if any, of them would demand any sort of in-game rewards for participating in the content they enjoy like the examples you have given (e.g., BiS-tier rare weapons).


However, I still stand by what I said when I said I don’t think every thing in this game needs rewards attached to it. When I RP, I’m more than happy to just craft a story with friends. I don’t need super awesome weapons or BIS gear to go along with it. When I raid, my gear drops are more a means to an end: I like to chase leaderboards and I also like to tackle Ultimate—which, you need gear better than the crafted gear for. I still think that demanding rewards for every thing makes one come off as superficial and caring only about the shinies, not the activity they’re participating in.

As a side note: I love how you seem to think I look down on RPers by snidely referring to them as “filthy RPers”. I don’t look down on anyone, especially those who like to roleplay. You know, being that I indulge in RP myself from time to time, that would be fairly hypocritical to think of roleplayers as “filthy RPers”.

[Shinkage]

Such is the plague of people in literally every MMO I've seen (even WoW, the so-called 'king' of endgame content).

99 times out of 100, these people have also not cleared the current endgame.

Here the complaint goes "I don't have no mounts b/c I don't like no mounts and I can't get no savage because I don't ever work a schedule and PF sux but I easy-clear all the things and never get loot and also have no parses proving that I've done anything ever because I'm the ultimate anomaly in the universe!"

On WoW it goes "Endgame sux b/c it's all about raids and the raidz are all ezpz even though I've never cleared anything above LFR it must be an anomaly on my profile or I'm really on an alt so don't judge what my profile says and I iz hardcorez uberMythicz raiders when you must be a baddie b/c you've only cleared 4/8 by the end of week 3 and this is all because I'm the ultimate anomaly in the universe!"

In SWTOR it goes "All the operations are way too ezpz even though I've cleared none of them b/c they're too ezpz and I'm the ultimate anomaly in the universe!"

TL;DR - People who do this can be defined with a simple, five-letter word: troll

The OP didn't mention endgame content so you must be one of the 99 out of 100 people in MMO forums that only read the subject of a thread before posting? Joking aside, I haven't done end game content and probably never will and I find all the content I do - quests, FATEs, leves, and light-party instances - far too easy. Dungeons are just tanks gathering as many mobs as possible while DPS just does AoE; quests never take any thought and never present a danger of dying; the only time I feel threatened in a zone is when on a low-level character and I don't notice a level 50 hostile hunt mob (everyone's done that right? please say I'm not the only one...)

TLDR: there is far more content then raiding and it is very very easy.

[HWalsh]

I disagree with your notions that activities people enjoy (i.e., RPing) deserve super special rewards. Participating in said activity is usually more than enough for players that actively enjoy them.

So, it's okay for RPers to get nothing because they enjoy RPing... But raiders... Who enjoy raiding... They should get special rewards.

Doesn't that seem... How do I put it...

Ya know, reading it, I'm sure you'll see what it looks like...

[JohnSpawnVFX]

So, it's okay for RPers to get nothing because they enjoy RPing... But raiders... Who enjoy raiding... They should get special rewards.

Doesn't that seem... How do I put it...

Ya know, reading it, I'm sure you'll see what it looks like...

Please, don't play the victim card.

Plus you know very well that if you're not running the content, you don't need the ilvl. Raiders do.