5.08 Nin buff / 5.1 Ninja getting gutted...

[TaiyouSeishin]

snip

The only problem with what you said, is im assuming you are given MAX rdps value of utilities. And you say to bring up nin in dps by 700 to 1000, considering we are 3 k behind like you said, we would still be behind.

Also, while i do not believe that a class should be tuned higher in damage for more complexity, at the same moment you cannt have a job be too complex for no reward either. Trick is over valued as you said the problem is that dps utility is ALWAYS hard to balance, because it needs to net a higher dps value for it to be worth it. Hindering pdps for utility is fine, but dps utility makes that harder.

Also, in terms of rdps vs pdps, what would you consider "in line"...

[CrashofZenki]

I was brand new to the game at the end of SB.

Do you actually have any idea of what you are writing about? I have been playing NIN since its release.

Dont feed the troll. stand still and maybe it goes away.

On a serious note tho. and on topic.
So what is basically said here is... Dont complain because we will ultimately end up with classes that only has one button?
If this is how its gonna be. A game where only non-utility classes are valued, then thats not a game I want to support with my money.

[Vendalwind]

Do you actually have any idea of what you are writing about? I have been playing NIN since its release.

Dont feed the troll. stand still and maybe it goes away.

On a serious note tho. and on topic.
So what is basically said here is... Dont complain because we will ultimately end up with classes that only has one button?
If this is how its gonna be. A game where only non-utility classes are valued, then thats not a game I want to support with my money.

I agree. And I also have played NIN since release, however I only really started raiding in deltascape. up till that point I was a filthy casual

snip

You obviously dont actually know much about MMO history my friend.
Thematically rogues have been the highest burst dmg, but also are generally quite high sustain too. WOW's history has strong rogues. Guild wars history has strong rogues. Ragnarok online had INCREDIBLE rogues.
So you are fooling yourself if you think rogue play has always been about the debuffs and tactics. Thats DND rogue. Not MMO rogue. And even in DND rogues can be quite strong, they are actually frequently only underpowered because DMs/GMs have a weird habit of being biased and making bad rulings against them (oh the classic DM ruling that you can only sneak attack if literally attacking from stealth instead of mid combat with an allies help.)

If giving feedback yields closed ears from the devs and a general simplification then I will also stop supporting this game.
Furthermore the assumption that thats how the devs will react to everything is stupid. Giving feedback is literally the only way players can have an impact on what the devs think. I have no idea how you could read into that opening post and suddenly convince yourself that the devs are gonna read it and be like "oh guess we should make NIN a 1 button class" But I honestly have more faith in them than that.

You on the other hand are basically fear mongering conjecture while telling other people to stop sharing their opinions and hopes for the class. Honestly its idiotic.

and as a final note, the assumption that the devs are 100% putting mudras on the GCD is still an assumption. Read the differing translations and you will realize that there are definitely still things up in the air. The literal BEST time to have your voice heard is right now when changes are in process. Literally earlier this expansion they told everyone to just be quiet and wait for the 5.05 changes. The fact that they are scrambling, and even adding a 5.08 should clue you into the fact that all of these changes are still works in progress.

This is literally the BEST time to try to talk about your individual hopes for NIN

[Drayos]

The only problem with what you said, is im assuming you are given MAX rdps value of utilities. And you say to bring up nin in dps by 700 to 1000, considering we are 3 k behind like you said, we would still be behind.

Also, while i do not believe that a class should be tuned higher in damage for more complexity, at the same moment you cannt have a job be too complex for no reward either. Trick is over valued as you said the problem is that dps utility is ALWAYS hard to balance, because it needs to net a higher dps value for it to be worth it. Hindering pdps for utility is fine, but dps utility makes that harder.

Also, in terms of rdps vs pdps, what would you consider "in line"...

I aint a balancing guy, sadly, i cannot tell exact numbers, i know at 99 percentile Ninja in Savage is doing 12-13k DPS, but the DPS at 75th percentile and more is MUCH wider, this is where the 3k is coming from, but Ninjas averaging at 12k DPS at 99 percentile in Savage apart from one fight, but its Not the only one that falls behind in DPS... majority of Jobs do it seems.

the Simplification they have talked over should allow lower performing Ninjas actually get closer to DPS potientals, and the GCD on Ninjitsus will actually make it more latency friendly reducing the impact Ping has overall, which will also do the same thing.

With a 1000 DPS buff they'll be on 13k, with Trick attack RDPS Wise 14k, BLM does 14.5k DPS.

So combined together This will close the gaps much further then u thing.

ofcourse this is taking into account we're expecting Monk to be Nerfed and DRG to maybe be touched also, so if the damage ceiling is also brought down by nerfing the Over performing jobs this will indirectly buff Ninjas DPS comparitively, so combined.. it should bring Ninja waay closer to the top in RDPS Value.

Do you actually have any idea of what you are writing about? I have been playing NIN since its release.

Dont feed the troll. stand still and maybe it goes away.

On a serious note tho. and on topic.
So what is basically said here is... Dont complain because we will ultimately end up with classes that only has one button?
If this is how its gonna be. A game where only non-utility classes are valued, then thats not a game I want to support with my money.

i didnt say dont complain, I said That the whole mentality of "MY JOBS DIFFICULT THEREFORE I SHOULD BE BEST" is dooming, Complaining a Job Doesnt do enough PDPS to justify isnt a Complaint, its a Fact of the state of balance currently. theres a huge difference in this. my post was Saying, they are Simplifying Ninja, it Isnt going to be as complex when 5.08/5.1 arrives, so ur Idea that it should work this way in the long run will smooth out anyway as ur COmplexity will be reduced overall.

it isnt "trolling" its the truth, Look at the buffs we've seen Come through So Far.

Bard, DRG, Monk, MCH have all become quite abit easier to play and these are the jobs SE have touched the most. there is Evidence that this is taking place and Jobs are being Simplified, With 2 more going under the Rework, both with several statements which WOULD reduce its Complexity and the focus of their attention on REDUCING BUTTON PRESSES and OGCDs it defintly Implys that the reworks will Simplify these jobs for you.

i aint saying Dont talk about changes u want to see, im saying that proclaiming these Changes Should be made Because of Job Skill curve Differences Will imply your saying something your not. As ur Trying to use it as a Justification to Imbalance the game itself.

please tell me a MMORPG today thats Successful in a Western audience where they physically balance the game Under Difficulty :P, cause i really cant think of any. WoW ESO and FFXIV have Never abided by such a Rule neither did GW2 or Rift during its more Successful days. Imbalance will kill a Game, and balancing on difficulty will do exactly that.

we'll all run around as the IDENTICAL job because its the top performance. Diversity would Die because no ones seriously going to choose a Job at the bottom of the List. Look at monk, its hit top DPS and MULTIPLIED in popularity in raiding.

you do not need to be a Veteran to understand the affects Imbalance can have on a game, u Simply need to a Background in the Genre to see the affects bad balancing can have on a MMORPG. i maybe new to FFXIV, but i have been in MMOs for 20 years and have seen several times Where balance is a Issue, if U didnt care about balance u Wouldnt be complaining. nor would anyone Else. its because of Balancing Several Jobs are currently rioting due to poor performance. Ur changes will just bring the other half of the jobs into the forums to make the same complaints.

I agree. And I also have played NIN since release, however I only really started raiding in deltascape. up till that point I was a filthy casual



You obviously dont actually know much about MMO history my friend.
Thematically rogues have been the highest burst dmg, but also are generally quite high sustain too. WOW's history has strong rogues. Guild wars history has strong rogues. Ragnarok online had INCREDIBLE rogues.
So you are fooling yourself if you think rogue play has always been about the debuffs and tactics. Thats DND rogue. Not MMO rogue. And even in DND rogues can be quite strong, they are actually frequently only underpowered because DMs/GMs have a weird habit of being biased and making bad rulings against them (oh the classic DM ruling that you can only sneak attack if literally attacking from stealth instead of mid combat with an allies help.)

If giving feedback yields closed ears from the devs and a general simplification then I will also stop supporting this game.
Furthermore the assumption that thats how the devs will react to everything is stupid. Giving feedback is literally the only way players can have an impact on what the devs think. I have no idea how you could read into that opening post and suddenly convince yourself that the devs are gonna read it and be like "oh guess we should make NIN a 1 button class" But I honestly have more faith in them than that.

You on the other hand are basically fear mongering conjecture while telling other people to stop sharing their opinions and hopes for the class. Honestly its idiotic.

and as a final note, the assumption that the devs are 100% putting mudras on the GCD is still an assumption. Read the differing translations and you will realize that there are definitely still things up in the air. The literal BEST time to have your voice heard is right now when changes are in process. Literally earlier this expansion they told everyone to just be quiet and wait for the 5.05 changes. The fact that they are scrambling, and even adding a 5.08 should clue you into the fact that all of these changes are still works in progress.

This is literally the BEST time to try to talk about your individual hopes for NIN

I didnt say they didnt if u read what i said properly i said OTHER GAMES DID NOT TAKE RDPS INTO BALANCE FACTOR.

Rogue in WOW for example has also been a top tier DPS option, but it has had ALOT of iterations of Vunerability and Aggro management tools, WoW Just never Nerfed their Personal DPS to compensate for the quantity of Utility the job has, but this has Also ment WoW at MULTIPLE points have pidgeon holed its playerbase in 4 Classes which people just Stack ontop of each other rather then trying to be Diverse in Choice, its actually affecting the game quite negatively as its making their Game more boring to watch by the playerbase as ALOT of people complain all they ever see is the EXACT same comp Done by EVERY team ALL the time.

did u not read the 70 Questions they answered? they litterally said putting it on GCDs to solve the issues of people unable to use it due to ping.... lol

Ninjutsu is easily influenced by lag, and we were reaching a limit as to how we could adjust it, so we are planning to restructure ninjutsu itself. The playstyle of putting together mudra will remain, but they will not be weaved between GCDs.

while translation could be Lost, its Clear by Some defining words. that it does make it sound Like they're going to do, and given the changes Prior this is again Something ALOT of players have asked for, The moment Dancer hit the scenes quite a few Players said "why cant Ninjutsu Work like Dancers Dances" because it is a HUGE problem for latency players. if this Doesnt happen then my statement isnt Applicable any longer. but clearly my opinons are beneath the fact i am assuming this is something they're looking into and this is a Fix that is highly likely the most effective.

theres Several people big People in the community who can translate Japanease. i'd imagine if we had gotten the Idea So entirely wrong, someone would of mentioned it when the 20,000 Videos of reviewing those Live letters.. so its Quite possible we actually do have the right idea of what they're doing.

reviewing every other Rework that has happened so far in SHB, Every job has been SImplified in their changes, Why do u think Ninja and Summoner would remain so simple. and while Some translation is wrong (ONE WORD in the Summoners wording lead some truth to this) ALL the changes Imply Simplification.. this isnt like one Statement.. every change Implied Talked abvout REDUCING the Complexity of the job lol.

again as Stated. anything can change, They could go further then theyv'e said they could do Less then they've Said.. they could overbuff any job they could Underbuff any job. Balance will do a Loop throughout 5.08 to 5.1 due to how Many jobs are Likely to be buffed over the course of these two patchs, so the final outcome could come out anywhere. but when speculating on buffs its obvious if they've changed they statement wasnt made with that knowledge.

[Vendalwind]

did u not read the 70 Questions they answered? they litterally said putting it on GCDs to solve the issues of people unable to use it due to ping.... lol

I have read, I watched too, And btw I happen to actually be one of those people on the English forums that speaks Japanese.................
And they way I heard it was it was one of the options they were CONSIDERING to fix the class. Which is exactly why speaking out against it is still a good idea.

And even if it were something they already planned on; people can still speak against it pre-emptively.

I do agree with you tho, they seem to be moving towards simplification.

If simplification comes in the form of removing the technical issues hurting a class Im hopeful, you are right chances are, based on past evidence, that the simplification will drastically reduce the difficulty.

But i still think that arguing difficulty should be more rewarding is not indirectly asking for simplification. Thats you and Devs (if they do it) reading into other peoples words without actually thinking about what the person that said it meant. Vieing to tell anyone to offer less feedback is stupid. We can argue against the way things are balanced freely if we so choose.