The Paladin job is the paladin only in name now. Pure salt and sadness.

[RiotSiren]

Cure, pacification with his counter, Esuna (if i remember correctly), Stone Skin, Protection, blind via Flash action and only after that - Cover. And that's the only one I can remeber. The only utility you say? Think again.

• Cure: This became Clemency, which is just a much better version as it cures for more and also heals yourself even when used on someone else and scales off stats you use.

• Pacification: This had no effect on anything that actually mattered, sure it would work on trash mobs but the bulk of their damage is from autos and it basically doesn't work on any bosses 50 or over these days.

• Esuna: they didn't, even if they did that's a healers job.

• Stone Skin: Pallys sort of still have this in the form of their group mitigation, and intervention, sure not usable on themselves but they have plenty of ways to keep themselves up. Again this was usable on all healers and was their job anyways.

• Protection:This had to be cast once at the start of a instance all healers had access to this, I don't see your point with this one.

• Blind: This one had some value in dungeons but outside that it had n use, bosses don't miss anymore. Honestly I wouldn't mind seeing this one baked in somewhere but its not really needed.

Basically everything either has a pally specific version or was not really anything to phone home about. Alot of the stuff you listed are WHM cross class skills. You keep saying Pally is a tank not a DPS, but you seem to want it to do the healers job alot.

I will say I kinda so wished they snuck in blind somewhere but that's not what this thread is about.

[Rakshazi]

zip

And again, all what you've said I said myself before, read carefully. It seems to me that you, folks don't wish to look or read the topic in it's full. I've SAID, that we have new skills, that replaced cross-class actions AND THEY ARE FINE. The thing I'M NOT FINE WITH - is that we have damage actions where we should've had utility actions. I'm not fine with removing counterattacking mechanick from PLD, I'm not fine, that we have TWO AoE spells for damage, I'm not fine, that the way PLD plays and feels now is more similiar to DPS job, that sometimes, throws some protective action. I'M NOT FINE with PLD loosing his master in defense and protection spells identity and becoming some dumb battle mage! This is not OK. This is BAD. It's not the job I loved anymore.
In every game possible, the Paladin job/class/role/whatever has always was and will be the defensive, healing and protective magick user with some form of Smite. That's the way he was here. Not anymore. Now it's some inquisitor archetype, that only doing some protection ocasionaly and more often casts some damage spell. No good.

[RiotSiren]

And again, all what you've said I said myself before, read carefully. It seems to me that you, folks don't wish to look or read the topic in it's full. I've SAID, that we have new skills, that replaced cross-class actions AND THEY ARE FINE. The thing I'M NOT FINE WITH - is that we have damage actions where we should've had utility actions. I'm not fine with removing counterattacking mechanick from PLD, I'm not fine, that we have TWO AoE spells for damage, I'm not fine, that the way PLD plays and feels now is more similiar to DPS job, that sometimes, throws some protective action. I'M NOT FINE with PLD loosing his master in defense and protection spells identity and becoming some dumb battle mage! This is not OK. This is BAD. It's not the job I loved anymore.

Play something else then.
From my perspective paladin has evolved in a pretty straight forward manor. If it needed more protective abilities they would have added them.

And why can't it be a battle mage? That fits plenty fine within the lore in my opinion.

You said its a "Royal Guard" but how do guards protect things in real life? They stop them from attacking you and attack them back, these are things paladin already does.
Add more defensive abilities simply because you say "It's a tank and it needs more" would simply make them redundant. 99% of the time you are tanking you are also DPSing, that's how you hold threat what all of these DPS skills do is make it so that DPS is interesting. Pally actually has 3 buttons for AoE DPS, Two which are a combo which build mana, one that hits hard and spends mana. All that replacing one of these would do is make paladin more boring to play in a AoE situation.

In every game possible, the Paladin job/class/role/whatever has always was and will be the defensive, healing and protective magick user with some form of Smite. That's the way he was here. Not anymore. Now it's some inquisitor archetype, that only doing some protection ocasionaly and more often casts some damage spell. No good.

• Defensive

-Sheltron, Sentinel, Cover ,Hallowed Ground, Rampart, Reprisal.

• Healing

-Clemency

• Protective magick user

-Divine Veil, Intervention, Passage of Arms

• with some form of Smite

-Holy Spirit, Holy Circle, Confiteor

Seems like it checks off all your boxes, honestly the way you describe it makes it sound like a healer, which is isn't here.

[Rakshazi]

zip

You have a weird way to twist my words in your favor. I can only applaud you for that skill. But nonetheless, you don't see what I've talking about all this time. PLD have a plenty of damage already in his physical damage rotation. Holy Spirit and Holy Circle are kinda fine even if they basicaly AoE and sigle target versions of the same spell. But Confiteor is out of place. Anywho, the way I think PLD should've been is the counterattacking tank with buffs or debuffs after counter. THIS is the way the guard works. This is the way we could use our shield properly. Smiting could be placed not like literal damaging nuke (that is more befiting to RDM) but like more flashy version of Atonement (it's the only skill I approve in ShB PLD). SE could give us more chances to actualy use our shield in fights and not only like blocking device. We could buff our allies or amplify damage on target after we counter it! We could be so much better than spamming Holy Spirit/Circle till the mana drops to 0, refill it with Riot Blade/Prominence - repeat. I do love the way PLD developed through the expansions, but the ShB changes are out of place and don't develop the SPIRIT of the job the way it should. My opinion.

[Lambdafish]

snip

I honestly don't know what you want PLD to be tbh, nor do I understand what has changed in ShB that makes it suddenly ruined after SB, its pretty much the same theme-wise with some extra DPS and QoL abilities.

Seriously dude, you are going around in circles.

- You have said you both want it to be unique and you also don't want it to have spells (something that makes it unique)
- You have said it should be healing and support based, despite all of its utility being healing and support based
- And you have straight-up misunderstood how crap PLDs utility used to be and how powerful it is now.

Oh and what hasn't been mentioned to debunk a claim that PLD has been neutered: PLD was straight up broken in SB, you complain about cover being worthless now, but cover was busted, and that needed to change. I'm speaking as someone who loved cover for being busted.

TLDR: PLD is literally the same but with a more fun rotation and some much-needed skill pruning/balancing, and literally everyone disagrees with you.

[Rakshazi]

I honestly don't know what you want PLD to be tbh, nor do I understand what has changed in ShB that makes it suddenly ruined after SB, its pretty much the same theme-wise with some extra DPS and QoL abilities.

Seriously dude, you are going around in circles.

- You have said you both want it to be unique and you also don't want it to have spells (something that makes it unique)
- You have said it should be healing and support based, despite all of its utility being healing and support based
- And you have straight-up misunderstood how crap PLDs utility used to be and how powerful it is now.

Oh and what hasn't been mentioned to debunk a claim that PLD has been neutered: PLD was straight up broken in SB, you complain about cover being worthless now, but cover was busted, and that needed to change. I'm speaking as someone who loved cover for being busted.

TLDR: PLD is literally the same but with a more fun rotation and some much-needed skill pruning/balancing, and literally everyone disagrees with you.

Ugh... You all win, I give up. You either can't or don't want to understand what I want PLD to be... I will write it last time and get out:
- I want it to be unique and properly themed. Like the warrior who uses blessings, protective magick and debuffing enemies. I want it top use his shield PROPERLY and more often, not like the dumb wall! The shield is a weapon!!! He SHOULD have spells, but not the damaging ones. They are not fit to the theme of PLD.
- Yes, healing and support based is what I wanted. But also - I wanted PLD to use counterattacking actions. It's DUMB, that WAR have his vengeance (when he's the damaging tank) and PLD has nothing to counter! BULLS**T. The utility of PLD should be in healing, protection and debuffing/buffing abilities for party. For example: 1 - PLD could have the trait that after every block of attack he deals 100 potency counter to attacker. 2 - PLD, instead of having Confiteor, could have the counterattack action on low CD: PLD block incoming atacks for 3 seconds and strikes in return with X potency, applying debuff, that reduces enemy's defense to x%. This would be much better thematicaly and will not low PLD's DPS output. In contrary it would be more usefull for the whole party to apply such defense debuff for DPS windows.
- I didn't misunderstood how crap his utility was and how good Clemency and Divine Veil are now. SE did good to replacing cross-class actions with those. But despite them being more potent PLD in ARR had more utility and debuffs and feeled more paladin-like.
- PLD's rotation now is not fun. We could be so much better than spamming Holy Spirit/Circle till the mana drops to 0, refill it with Riot Blade/Prominence - repeat.

[RiotSiren]

Ugh... You all win, I give up. You either can't or don't want to understand what I want PLD to be

We get what you want, we just don't want it and like how paladin is.

- I want it to be unique and properly themed. Like the warrior who uses blessings, protective magick and debuffing enemies.

It has all of this but enemy debuffs, which don't sound all that paladiny to me honestly.

I want it top use his shield PROPERLY and more often, not like the dumb wall! The shield is a weapon!!!

I can get behind this one actually, I would like mroe animations where paladin uses their shield more offensively

He SHOULD have spells, but not the damaging ones. They are not fit to the theme of PLD.

Why not damaging ones? You said yourself Paladins should be able to smite and that's what these are.

- Yes, healing and support based is what I wanted. But also - I wanted PLD to use counterattacking actions. It's DUMB, that WAR have his vengeance (when he's the damaging tank) and PLD has nothing to counter! BULLS**T.

while I did like the mechanic, paladin having counters would either FORCE them to main tank, or if they are off tank to take hits they shouldn't in order to maintain DPS, yes WAR has vengeance but it is extremely minor and basically never used for damage. I don't know where you get this idea that PLD should eb the counter tank as historically in FF games they were not.

The utility of PLD should be in healing, protection and debuffing/buffing abilities for party. For example: 1 - PLD could have the trait that after every block of attack he deals 100 potency counter to attacker. 2 - PLD, instead of having Confiteor, could have the counterattack action on low CD: PLD block incoming atacks for 3 seconds and strikes in return with X potency, applying debuff, that reduces enemy's defense to x%. This would be much better thematicaly and will not low PLD's DPS output. In contrary it would be more usefull for the whole party to apply such defense debuff for DPS windows.

This would force paladin to be main tank in order to maintain good DPS and we have 3 other tanks atm so no. What would you do if your group has 2 paladins they both can't have the boss attacking them?

- I didn't misunderstood how crap his utility was and how good Clemency and Divine Veil are now. SE did good to replacing cross-class actions with those. But despite them being more potent PLD in ARR had more utility and debuffs and feeled more paladin-like.

I also don't know where you are getting this "Paladin should apply defensive debuffs" from. Always seemed like holy spell casting and healing was more their gimmick which they have here.

- PLD's rotation now is not fun. We could be so much better than spamming Holy Spirit/Circle till the mana drops to 0, refill it with Riot Blade/Prominence - repeat.

This is 100% a opinion, that, if the reactions to this thread are anything to go by, a vast majority of the players disagree with. I appreciate the passion behind your idea, but it simply will not work and is largely unwanted here.

[Rakshazi]

zip

About smite
This is what the Smite is (text below). I love DnD and we all must agree that all RPG games are descendants of good old DnD tabletop. This is what PLD atack magick is: empovering next atack that will deal damage and can debuff the enemy with it's variations. Empovered atack. Not nuke spell.
Divine Smite
Starting at 2nd level, when you hit a creature with a melee weapon Attack, you can expend one spell slot to deal radiant damage to the target, in addition to the weapon's damage. The extra damage is 2d8 for a 1st-level spell slot, plus 1d8 for each Spell Level higher than 1st, to a maximum of 5d8. The damage increases by 1d8 if the target is an Undead or a fiend.

About debuffs
Paladin in DnD have an access to divine magick that can not only bless and heal, but to curse aswell. So debuffs and buffs are quite native to paladins in general.

About forcing to be Main Tank
I told before - If some jobs are better and some specific actions than the other of it's category IT'S OKAY!!! If it's good in one thing it will be bad in the other! Can counter and use it as the damage source vs can't counter and doing damage via brute force. That's the way things were in the RR. The Realm Reborn gave us options of purely defensive style tank and a bruser and everyone was fine with it! PLDs were often MT and that was OKAY. Because WAR could focus on damage and be a backup for some situations! They done their jobs well (tanking) in the standart dutyes and all were happy. But someone in SE decided to make all of the tanks the same. WHY!?!? Why did SE allow him to do that?!? And YES, ALL TANKS ARE THE SAME. They have a different rotations and could feel a bit defferent but in the end THEY HAVE ALL THE SAME BASIC KIT - Gauge to fill for specific actions, 1 single target rotation, 1 AoE rotation, SAME job actions, some form of pseudo-unique mitigation and invulnerability. You see what I'm talking about? I don't like that all tanks become the basicaly reskin of WAR. Ther should be diversity and uniquness in the different jobs. The ultimate goal is to TANK, but if someone tanking via counters and someone via sheer damage LET IT BE.

AND GIVE US SOME SHIELD ACTIONS SE!!! Like seriously, why the F you give character the shield in hand and don't make him use it! The way skills and animations work now you could just strip it away and no one will see the difference.

[aodhan_ofinnegain]

Mate, just give up, nobody wants your variation of paladin, the devs have THEIR creative license to make paladin how they feel they want it to be and the majority of the player base paladin playing enjoy the current iteration. It's the best iteration so far and the job's growth has only made it better and better over the last two expansions. Basically if you do not like current paladin, do not play it, simple as that, otherwise go play another game.

[Dynia]

Ugh... You all win, I give up. You either can't or don't want to understand what I want PLD to be... I will write it last time and get out:
- I want it to be unique and properly themed. Like the warrior who uses blessings, protective magick and debuffing enemies. I want it top use his shield PROPERLY and more often, not like the dumb wall! The shield is a weapon!!! He SHOULD have spells, but not the damaging ones. They are not fit to the theme of PLD.
- Yes, healing and support based is what I wanted. But also - I wanted PLD to use counterattacking actions. It's DUMB, that WAR have his vengeance (when he's the damaging tank) and PLD has nothing to counter! BULLS**T. The utility of PLD should be in healing, protection and debuffing/buffing abilities for party. For example: 1 - PLD could have the trait that after every block of attack he deals 100 potency counter to attacker. 2 - PLD, instead of having Confiteor, could have the counterattack action on low CD: PLD block incoming atacks for 3 seconds and strikes in return with X potency, applying debuff, that reduces enemy's defense to x%. This would be much better thematicaly and will not low PLD's DPS output. In contrary it would be more usefull for the whole party to apply such defense debuff for DPS windows.
- I didn't misunderstood how crap his utility was and how good Clemency and Divine Veil are now. SE did good to replacing cross-class actions with those. But despite them being more potent PLD in ARR had more utility and debuffs and feeled more paladin-like.
- PLD's rotation now is not fun. We could be so much better than spamming Holy Spirit/Circle till the mana drops to 0, refill it with Riot Blade/Prominence - repeat.

ok you have your point of view and opinion on that how paladin should look and that ok, but who said paladin should be like you described ?
paladin theme character is just warrior who use white magic as his 2nd aresenal, no1 said white magic should be always defensive, there are alot themes that paladin use offense spells vs undead as best example, so spell like holy circle fit class more then you think

also paladin have clemacy as your best defence spell that fit EVEN more than you think + still have spell like cover and shield for oath points ...

paladin always was hybrid warrior + half white magic and NOT ALWAYS use 1h weapon + shield some paladins used 2h swords for example