Can we talk about how mnk, drg, and blm are blatantly overpowered right now?

[dinnertime]

Before I say anything, I don't know if MNK dps warrants that big of a difference, and maybe it could be toned down a bit? But...

Monk is one of the jobs I feel like should always be at the top end of the charts. Simply because its a pure melee job, and its rotation is one of the busiest with positionals in pretty much every weaponskill. That coupled with having to manage Greased Lightning at all times. That's a boatload of button presses to be made to be optimal. And yes, I'm counting the WASD key presses. It would be a disservice towards monk if someone else did as much dps with less effort.

Honestly I disagree. The busyness of a job shouldn't scale to how much damage it does. The devs even said they disagree with this mentality. If that's true then NIN and SMN should be at the very top and BLM should be at the bottom.

I don't play MNK to really have a solid opinion, but with the 5.05 change, they basically have 50% uptime to ignore positionals. Managing Greased Lightning is something other (most) DPS have to go through as well. I think MNK is too good right now and should be adjusted.

[Zerathor]

Same with BLM and SMN: the difference is even larger between them, with it being over 1,100 rDPS at the 95th percentile for All Bosses. BLM is 1,386 rDPS above RDM.

There needs to be some adjustments made.

It's almost as if raise is a game changing ability that should not be free to have access to. Remove dps raise then we'll talk. Until then, they shouldn't even be close or we'll just face the same issue as stormblood.

Raise is also a poor utility to tax damage heavily on, as it stops being useful once you move past progression and into farming/optimization territory. A light tax is fine. But an ~1,000+ rDPS difference is not.

It was a miniscule tax once upon a time. It made black mage irrelevant because people were fine losing 200-400 dps for the sheer broken levels of consistency a dps raise will bring. Hell, some fights it would do even more. It is the strongest safety net that makes slip ups not turn into a wipe. With the miniscule loss and raise, smn was a perfect prog and speed run job for absolutely no good reason regarding balance.

[Siccoroa]

DPS raise is in no way worth anywhere near 1000 DPS.

The problem in stormblood was that smn did 200 DPS less than blm before accounting for raid DPS. Which led to smn do a couple hundred more DPS than blm after accounting for raid DPS. The problem right now is that even when accounting for raid DPS, blm does 1000+ more DPS than other casters. The problem is is that there is no reason to play smn or rdm when blm is as strong as it is. A 50th percentile blm contributes more to a raid than a 90th percentile smn. A 30th percentile blm contributes more to a raid than a 90th percentile rdm

[Alym]

It's almost as if raise is a game changing ability that should not be free to have access to. Remove dps raise then we'll talk. Until then, they shouldn't even be close or we'll just face the same issue as stormblood.



It was a miniscule tax once upon a time. It made black mage irrelevant because people were fine losing 200-400 dps for the sheer broken levels of consistency a dps raise will bring. Hell, some fights it would do even more. It is the strongest safety net that makes slip ups not turn into a wipe. With the miniscule loss and raise, smn was a perfect prog and speed run job for absolutely no good reason regarding balance.

I love all the casters near equally and have mained all of them at some point. SMN and RDM were caster darlings in SB and now it's BLM. BLM now completely pushes both others out of relevancy and while you may enjoy it now that BLM is on top, remember how that felt during SB when BLM was irrelevant. This current situation with BLM is not balance either, same as how it wasn't balance when SMN (and RDM to a lesser extent) were vastly better.

One thing you bring up, though, is very important and I talk about it as much as I can: caster Raise. I've seen multiple posts on the JP side SMN thread calling for its removal with 30 or so likes each but when I or someone else post about it in NA forums it never gains traction and I've found it incredibly frustrating. The biggest and most common factor that really severely harms caster balance is Raise. In SB, it made BLM the odd one out. Now, in ShB, it makes SMN and RDM far too weak. In the live letter, Yoshi even mentioned lack of Raise as a reason for BLM's huge damage. It makes balancing casters seemingly impossible for the dev team.

Raise is at the same time very powerful and very weak for SMN and RDM. During prog, it's incredibly strong as it allows you to see more mechanics by preventing wipes. After that, it's usefulness drops considerably but the DPS tax for SMN and RDM remains forever. And the ShB Raise DPS tax is far far heavier than it has ever been. It's so heavy, it allows BLM to shove SMN and RDM out of relevancy.

The best solutions are to make Raise a caster role action as an oGCD with an enormously long CD, or to remove Raise from SMN and RDM. Anything else and it just serves to destroy caster balance.

[Zerathor]

I love all the casters near equally and have mained all of them at some point. SMN and RDM were caster darlings in SB and now it's BLM. BLM now completely pushes both others out of relevancy and while you may enjoy it now that BLM is on top, remember how that felt during SB when BLM was irrelevant. This current situation with BLM is not balance either, same as how it wasn't balance when SMN (and RDM to a lesser extent) were vastly better.

One thing you bring up, though, is very important and I talk about it as much as I can: caster Raise. I've seen multiple posts on the JP side SMN thread calling for its removal with 30 or so likes each but when I or someone else post about it in NA forums it never gains traction and I've found it incredibly frustrating. The biggest and most common factor that really severely harms caster balance is Raise. In SB, it made BLM the odd one out. Now, in ShB, it makes SMN and RDM far too weak. In the live letter, Yoshi even mentioned lack of Raise as a reason for BLM's huge damage. It makes balancing casters seemingly impossible for the dev team.

Raise is at the same time very powerful and very weak for SMN and RDM. During prog, it's incredibly strong as it allows you to see more mechanics by preventing wipes. After that, it's usefulness drops considerably but the DPS tax for SMN and RDM remains forever. And the ShB Raise DPS tax is far far heavier than it has ever been. It's so heavy, it allows BLM to shove SMN and RDM out of relevancy.

The best solution is to make Raise a caster role action as an oGCD with an enormously long CD, or to remove Raise from SMN and RDM. Anything else and it just serves to destroy caster balance.

The disparity we see now isn't what it was.
Here's deltascape
https://www.fflogs.com/zone/statistics/17

Here's eden currently
https://www.fflogs.com/zone/statistics/29

Casters roughly equal in runs, rdm sagging behind a little bit.

I'd be all for them being equal r damage if raise is removed but even if it's not, this is what balance looks like (for the casters at least). They're not in bad spots. They're just not overtuned anymore. Nowhere near being pushed to irrelevancy.

[Alym]

The disparity we see now isn't what it was.
Here's deltascape
https://www.fflogs.com/zone/statistics/17

Here's eden currently
https://www.fflogs.com/zone/statistics/29

Casters roughly equal in runs, rdm sagging behind a little bit.

I'd be all for them being equal r damage if raise is removed but even if it's not, this is what balance looks like (for the casters at least). They're not in bad spots. They're just not overtuned anymore. Nowhere near being pushed to irrelevancy.

I don't believe that the number of people playing each class directly correlates to class balance. EDIT: Misread which SB Raid he was referring to.

Regardless, BLM is so good that it makes the other casters irrelevant. After all utility and personal dps, BLM still outdamages the others by over 1,000 dps. That's at least 660,000 damage over an 11 minute fight. That disparity is the difference between enrage and clear, and using Raise only makes that worse by hurting the SMN and RDM dps in using the action and by adding in weakness to the Raised player. The disparity is far too great.

[Zerathor]

I don't believe that the number of people playing each class directly correlates to class balance. EDIT: Misread which SB Raid he was referring to.

Regardless, BLM is so good that it makes the other casters irrelevant. After all utility and personal dps, BLM still outdamages the others by over 1,000 dps. That's at least 660,000 damage over an 11 minute fight. That disparity is the difference between enrage and clear, and using Raise only makes that worse by hurting the SMN and RDM dps in using the action and by adding in weakness to the Raised player. The disparity is far too great.

Irrelevant
Jobs
Aren't
Played

Especially in similar numbers.
Irrelevant Jobs get shoehorned into using a different job or get kicked from a static. Irrelevant Jobs can't even get into decent statics. Irrelevant Jobs get blacklisted in party finder. Irrelevant Jobs are viewed as too much of a handicap for the group to clear a fight.

[Alym]

Irrelevant
Jobs
Aren't
Played

Especially in similar numbers.

If you're here to get into a semantics argument instead of an argument about balance, then you don't really have a balance argument, do you? Once you decide to respond appropriately, I might discuss things with you again. The number of people playing a class does not dictate how balanced the classes are. MCH in SB was a perfect example of this. There are other factors.

[Zerathor]

If you're here to get into a semantics argument instead of an argument about balance, then you don't really have a balance argument, do you? Once you decide to respond appropriately, I might discuss things with you again. The number of people playing a class does not dictate how balanced the classes are. MCH in SB was a perfect example of this. There are other factors.

It's actually a very good metric to go off of. Many casters have multiple casting jobs, if not all 3. Now, why would they choose to be an irrelevant job? Why would they choose these irrelevant Jobs in near equal ammount as this "broken black mage"? It's almost like it's balanced or something. Nooo... that couldn't be right. Summoner could only be balanced if it's the strongest prog job while having a place in speed run comps simultaneously, of course how silly of me. That's what you think Balance means, isn't it? Balance is black mage being shoved to the way side because everyone would drop 200 dps to gain another raise apparently. Respond appropriately? A real argument for balance? What a joke. You bring nothing to this. If 1000 dps is how much it takes for people to justify missing a raise in a group, that's the value raise has for bargaining.

[TaiyouSeishin]

You have things the wrong way around. Rdps is exactly the thing you want to balance jobs around, while pdps is the thing you should be ignoring when looking at job balance. If a blm does 15k when a dancer partners him, and that dancer is doing 9k, it's obviously a skewed comparison because some of the work done by the dancer is going to the blm instead. When you look at rdps you're attributing things correctly to the source of that damage, so that blm would look more like 13.5k, and the dancer would be at 10.5k or something.

No, that's exactly what you want. In an ideal case, when looking at the jobs sorted by rdps every job should have a bar exactly the same length as each other. It's the opposite in fact, the support jobs are doing extra work for less damage, while the selfish jobs can just do the same thing they always do in every party while also contributing the most damage.

When selfish jobs like blm are still on top even when you look at things from an rdps standpoint, that should tell you that something is seriously wrong with the balance between the selfish and support oriented jobs. If a dancer does not add as much value to the group as another blm, why would you not just bring 2 blm's instead of a blm and a dancer instead? It must feel horrible being a dancer outside of raids too, in light parties you only buff 3 other people so your rdps is reduced while a blm is only reliant on themselves, let alone solo content in the open world. Might as well just play blm and be the king of the game everywhere.

We are going to reach the point soon where people realize bringing another melee or blm is better than having any of the ranged in the party at all. Even the 1% mainstat buff you get for bringing a ranged, or the LB penalty won't be enough to outweigh the sheer gains.

The entire point i made was that people look at rdps for balance so They see nin at the bottom of the melee and think thats how it should be (and they are right) but not in rdps, because its showin the nin dps + utility doesnt even equal its counterparts. NIN isnt the only one working harder for its lacking rdps, the whole group its with does, if the wole group has to work hard for the nin they bring to still do less or even the same as its counter part... thats the problem. You LITERALLY have been saying what i have been for a month, the only disagreement i have being that everyomes rdps should be the same. Because anything that makes the whole group work harder, just for that class to break even... dont think thats how that should work. Its why i say rdps is deceiving.

As for ranged, this is the only mmo ive played where the ranged seem to be taxed so they cant compete with melee...