5.0 Wind-Up Openers

[HyoMinPark]

You're guaranteed two EA in each song window with it's CD and with where it is in the openers I listed, even if it does come off CD during a song-less period, it wouldn't be more than 1 or 2 GCDs and it's the only time it would happen in an encounter. You'd have to collectively hold EA by seven GCDs in order to waste a usage over a fight.

I still disagree with the idea of remaining songless for several seconds, and with sitting on EA at that time. I don’t think it’s optimal play for the job, as I’ve explained regarding Repertoire, procs, and the Soul Gauge.

I do see what you mean about having exact spots for PP given it's nature. I tried to mention that you can switch it's placement with Sidewinder if RNG is good, but so long as you don't have a NIN or RDM, you can really pop them anywhere you want (which I should also add in there).

Sidewinder should more or less be used within raid buffs of any kind—the easiest to align it with is TA simply because they share a cooldown duration, which I believe is the default that the standard opener uses. I know that this was the case in SB, and that BRDs have always advocated to fit Sidewinder into TA for that extra boost on it.

PP is an oGCD, so it’s usage is relatively free in terms of where you can place it. Just make sure you don’t clip your next GCD while using it. It’s very basic: most of the time, you use it at 3 stacks; when the song is about to end, blow your remaining stacks with in the last couple of seconds. The biggest caveat is the “if EA is coming up concurrent with the next DoT tick”, and even that is something I am learning as a BRD main since before PP was even a thing!

I can see the concern with the Cascade/Fountain fall combo and the second move gaining a Flourishing proc, but that just means you have to delay Flourish by 1 GCD. Unlike other duration buffs, it only takes about 8-10 seconds to use all of the Flourishing GCDs back to back, so it being pushed back by 1 GCD shouldn't be that bad. This is all assuming that the fight has 100% uptime, since there are several fights where you have to delay buffs during add phases (unless they're extremely tanky or you know you're going to have the buff up gain by the time the boss becomes targetable again) or there are moments of downtime (i.e. Maelstrom in E3S).

With regards to the bolded part, you aren’t accounting for the fact that you’re supposed to fit in a Standard Finish into your TF/Devilment window as well, which takes 5 seconds to perform. You also aren’t accounting for having to prioritize Saber Dance if you have an abundance of Esprit, which is very possible during a TF window in any party that is competent.

With Saber being 600 potency versus the 350 potency of Fountainfall and the 300 potency of Reverse Cascade/Bloodshower (standard usage of Rising Windmill usually has it outside of Devilment, but inside TF—but it’s 250 potency for reference), you prioritize it first if you are going to risk overcapping on Esprit otherwise (and it’s used at 80 gauge regardless in most instances—I think the only reason you would delay it is if one of your Flourished procs is going to fall off otherwise). It’s not uncommon to have to Saber Dance before you fit in your SF into your burst, as it’s very easy to go from half Esprit to full within that 5-second time frame; and overcapping on Esprit means overcapping on resources. Which means lost damage. There are even instances where you have to delay SF for a Saber Dance.

So I don’t think you can just say that the procs only take 8~10s to use and that it won’t be a big deal when there are multiple factors that may cause you to prioritize other GCDs over them during your bursts.

Keep in mind that some fights don’t have downtime like E3S does (E2S, for example), so your delayed Flourish—which can be from 1 GCD to 2 GCDs if you get procs off of both Cascade and Fountain in your proposed openers—will persist throughout the encounter due to having no opportunity to try and “fix” it. I don’t think the natural Drift of our dances is enough to rectify this issue fully.

If you are forced to delay it again further down in your rotation due to lucky procs, this hurts you even more. You never delay TF to try and realign Flourish, as that hurts buff alignment; which, in turn, hurts the raid. So you have to consistently deal with it being misaligned by those 1 or 2 GCDs. At most, I think that you can delay TF if there are mechanics happening that might prevent multiple party members from receiving the buff; but these are situations where you work with your group so that you collectively hold buffs for a few seconds—and no more than that, from my understanding of it all. And this is in fights with 100% uptime and no downtime/phase transitions/bosses jumping and flailing about doing stuff.

Ultimately, the reason for all of this work is an obsession I have with strengthening my TK rotation. Much as I'd like to just do the strongest monk opener, it's pointless if doing so mess up raid buff alignment and everyone else's damage.

I don’t know much about MNK because I don’t main melee jobs, but I haven’t heard anything about actively using TK (save for niche scenarios where you’ll for sure lose GL, but I think it’s so easy to manage now that that’s no longer a huge issue) now that they’ve changed PB back to 120s. I know that it had far more versatility with the 60s PB.

I checked the pinned openers in the Balance, and didn’t see it being used anywhere. I’m assuming that these openers are the most optimal openers with regards to basic buff alignments (given the nature of the theorycrafters in there and all the work they do), so I guess I’m not sure why you’re wanting to use it or design a rotation/opener around it that may not even be optimal.

I can understand it wanting to have viability, and maybe that’s where this all ultimately stems from; but if using it comes at the sacrifice of damage/sacrificing optimization, I don’t think its worth it. I don’t think it’s a skill entire openers and raid buff alignment should be changed to cater towards, either. But this is just my opinion.

I’m not trying to be rude or mean in any way, but some of the things I have read and your reasonings just seem illogical based on what I’ve studied about the jobs I main. I don’t claim to be any sort of expert—I still say that I am constantly learning and optimizing—but I think I have a fair grasp on the concepts around BRD/DNC either way.



I don’t know if you saw what I said above about the healers, but I think you should brush up on job mechanics for all roles before further theorycrafting, as you mistakenly advocated for a 1m 45s pre-pull for AST on the pretense of fishing for Seals and a pre-pull card. But since you cannot obtain Seals outside of combat, so this is entirely unnecessary (and pre-pulls like this is why the developers made Seals combat only—after all, they really hated the 60s pre-pull for HW WAR with Infuriate; and they changed Hide to reset Mudras in SB because NINs were asking for 20s or more pre-pulls for Huton). There’s still much I think you could stand to learn.

[Oxdarock]

With regards to the bolded part, you aren’t accounting for the fact that you’re supposed to fit in a Standard Finish into your TF/Devilment window as well, which takes 5 seconds to perform. You also aren’t accounting for having to prioritize Saber Dance if you have an abundance of Esprit, which is very possible during a TF window in any party that is competent.

So I don’t think you can just say that the procs only take 8~10s to use and that it won’t be a big deal when there are multiple factors that may cause you to prioritize other GCDs over them during your bursts.

I don’t know much about MNK because I don’t main melee jobs, but I haven’t heard anything about actively using TK (save for niche scenarios where you’ll for sure lose GL, but I think it’s so easy to manage now that that’s no longer a huge issue) now that they’ve changed PB back to 120s. I know that it had far more versatility with the 60s PB.

I checked the pinned openers in the Balance, and didn’t see it being used anywhere. I’m assuming that these openers are the most optimal openers with regards to basic buff alignments (given the nature of the theorycrafters in there and all the work they do), so I guess I’m not sure why you’re wanting to use it or design a rotation/opener around it that may not even be optimal.

I can understand it wanting to have viability, and maybe that’s where this all ultimately stems from; but if using it comes at the sacrifice of damage/sacrificing optimization, I don’t think its worth it. I don’t think it’s a skill entire openers and raid buff alignment should be changed to cater towards, either. But this is just my opinion.

I’m not trying to be rude or mean in any way, but some of the things I have read and your reasonings just seem illogical based on what I’ve studied about the jobs I main. I don’t claim to be any sort of expert—I still say that I am constantly learning and optimizing—but I think I have a fair grasp on the concepts around BRD/DNC either way.

I don’t know if you saw what I said above about the healers, but I think you should brush up on job mechanics for all roles before further theorycrafting, as you mistakenly advocated for a 1m 45s pre-pull for AST on the pretense of fishing for Seals and a pre-pull card. But since you cannot obtain Seals outside of combat, so this is entirely unnecessary (and pre-pulls like this is why the developers made Seals combat only—after all, they really hated the 60s pre-pull for HW WAR with Infuriate; and they changed Hide to reset Mudras in SB because NINs were asking for 20s or more pre-pulls for Huton). There’s still much I think you could stand to learn.

I think you have it mixed up there. Tech Step/Finish takes 5.5-6 secs to perform while Standard Step/Finish should only take 3 seconds (all the step moves are on a 1 second CD).

I still think that having to delay Flourish for 1 or 2 GCDs (assuming you also have a Saber dance that needs to be used) isn't that bad since it doesn't take more than 8 seconds to use all of the Flourish moves.

I've written a guide on the 5.0 TK rotation and it's perfectly viable, especially if your RNG is good with 6SS and TK crit/dh procs.

I'm not offended in any way, nor do I think you're being mean, but I don't see the point in completely scrapping an idea just because there are a couple of flaws to it that can be fixed. I really appreciate the feedback and have gleamed things from this. I also had no idea AST couldn't gain seals outside of combat, so that's also something I'll need to edit. Thanks a bunch!

[HyoMinPark]

I think you have it mixed up there. Tech Step/Finish takes 5.5-6 secs to perform while Standard Step/Finish should only take 3 seconds (all the step moves are on a 1 second CD).

This is incorrect: Technical takes 7 seconds and Standard takes 5 seconds. Technical and Standard are both on the GCD (they are not oGCDs), but when you use them, they lower your base GCD to a 1.5s GCD. Meaning you have 1.5s > 1 > 1 > 1.5s for Standard (for a total of 5s) and 1.5s > 1 > 1 > 1 > 1 > 1.5s for Technical (for a total of 7s). The Step and the Finish are both bound by the 1.5s GCD change, so the entire process of a Standard Step and a Technical Step are 5s and 7s, respectfully.

No offense, but you don’t even have DNC unlocked. Why are you attempting to theorycraft on it?

I've written a guide on the 5.0 TK rotation and it's perfectly viable, especially if your RNG is good with 6SS and TK crit/dh procs.

I don’t know much about MNK and I won’t comment on it purely on that fact. However, have you tried to speak with actual MNK theorycrafters about if your guide is viable or not? Have they provided you with feedback? I’m not talking about just random MNKs, but the MNKs that do the number crunching; the best MNKs in the game. I highly recommend you speaking with them about what you have written.

I'm not offended in any way, nor do I think you're being mean, but I don't see the point in completely scrapping an idea just because there are a couple of flaws to it that can be fixed. I really appreciate the feedback and have gleamed things from this. I also had no idea AST couldn't gain seals outside of combat, so that's also something I'll need to edit. Thanks a bunch!

I guess I’m coming from the point of view that theorycrafters have already figured out the most mathematically viable and most mathematically optimal options for openers and rotations. And, again, I also think that you need a deeper understanding of things before you begin to theorycraft. The mistakes I have pointed out just with 3 of the jobs are fairly basic things that all theorycrafters should know. There may be more that I missed or didn’t comment on. So I really think you should take Kitfox’s offer to join The Balance and probe the minds of the theorycrafters in there before further number crunching and guide writing is done.

And yeah, I did state that a lot of this is touchy-feely, so I appreciate the feedback!

I think this is the biggest flaw: theorycrafting isn’t done around feeling; it’s done around math and numbers. Optimization is all about what is mathematically optimal to do, not what “feels good” to do or what a particular player wants to do.

[Kitfox]

I don’t know much about MNK and I won’t comment on it purely on that fact. However, have you tried to speak with actual MNK theorycrafters about if your guide is viable or not? Have they provided you with feedback? I’m not talking about just random MNKs, but the MNKs that do the number crunching; the best MNKs in the game. I highly recommend you speaking with them about what you have written.

From what I know, he actually did consult some of our monks, he was given feedback and numbers, even simulated dps differences for the rotations and reasons why they were inferior, but all of that was readily ignored and he continued to call their guide "perfectly viable."

Again, why is it required that raid buffs go out as early as possible? The way I have it mapped out it the beginning, TA still comes out while most raid buffs are up, with Embolden being the exception due to how it works.

Using MCH as an example, if TA comes out at 10 secs and it takes at least 15 seconds to build up enough battery gauge, and it takes 5 seconds for the Automaton to start attacking, how are you getting Pile Bunker off within the TA window?

You don't get a Pile Bunker in the first Trick Attack, you get it in the second one. This is why delaying raid buffs is bad, by the time you get one delayed use with your schedule, more optimal timings get a second use much faster while also doing much higher personal dps.

[HyoMinPark]

From what I know, he actually did consult some of our monks, he was given feedback and numbers, even simulated dps differences for the rotations and reasons why they were inferior, but all of that was readily ignored and he continued to call their guide "perfectly viable."

I see. If that is true, then that is unfortunate.

OP, I highly recommend you take what these players have to say seriously and to heart. I know that they work really hard on everything they do, and they probably know more about these jobs than you and I do. So I definitely don’t think the way to go about diving into theorycrafting is to ignore the theorycrafters and their math.

I also think you should play the jobs before you attempt to theorycraft them. Again, I mean no offense, but you haven’t even unlocked DNC, yet you’re trying to argue with me about optimal play and how the job actually works when I have been playing it since the expansion dropped and reading up on every bit of information the DNCs release that I can find. My performance may not be as great as theirs and I have a long way to go towards optimizing, but I like to think that I understand the theory and how the job plays a bit more than someone who hasn’t unlocked it.... I won’t attempt to speak on in-depth things about jobs I don’t know about purely because it’s likely I’d be wrong about it. So I really think you should consider doing the same.

This actually caught me in the beginning to. When it comes to weaponskills, the math is reversed. So for example, if your GCD were 2 seconds and you multiplied it by 5, the number you get is actually when the 6th GCD comes out. So with Standard Step, it goes 1.5+1+1= 3.5. That's when you can use Standard Finish. Same thing goes for Tech Step/Finish.

Technical is 7s and Standard is 5s for the entirety of them. As you cannot use any GCDs until your Standard Finish and Technical Finish resolve due to them being bound to the GCD—and since we are talking about GCD skills here with Flourished procs and Saber Dance—that is why I have stated that the durations are 5s and 7s, respectfully.

I’m not even discussing the math here—I know that the hit for SF and TF come before the 5s and 7s (at 3.5s and 5.5s, respectfully). I’m talking purely about the duration of the skills themselves, which I think is important to note provided the conversation we were having about Flourish, utilizing the Flourished procs, and Saber Dance utilization.



EDIT: And I have hit the posting limit:

Yes. It is important. Which is why I started that it takes at least 8 seconds to use all four Flourish moves back to back.

But you also ignored that you have to fit in a SF into your TF windows (eating up 5s of time), and that you also have to keep an eye on Saber Dance and use it so as to not overcap on Esprit, which can generate at an alarmingly high rate during TF with any party that is competent at what they do. The whole point I was making was that, by delaying your Flourish, you are inviting the potential of pushing Flourished procs outside of your major burst window (Technical/Devilment), which is a DPS loss. Your opener invites blatant delay of the skill compared to the standard opener that the DNC theorycrafters have provided, which is why I think it’s inefficient.

The standard opener for DNC is as follows:

-15s: Standard Step > Step > Step
-2s: Potion
On pull: Standard Finish > Technical Step > Step x4 > Technical Finish > Flourish > Rising Windmill > Devilment > priority based on (in order of priority): Saber Dance, Standard Finish, Flourished Procs (Fountainfall, Reverse Cascade, and Bloodshower) while weaving in FD3s and FD1s.

The only variant of this is if you have Dance Partnered with a DRG or a NIN, which favor a Devilment before you start Technical because it lines up better with their burst as opposed to the Devilment after Rising Windmill. As DNC is a support job, you adjust to support your partner with Devilment usage.

It’s also worth to mention that this opener lines up with all standard job openers so that Technical falls in line with both raid buffs and any personal buffs jobs may have, allowing them to have a strong burst.

[Oxdarock]

Technical is 7s and Standard is 5s for the entirety of them. As you cannot use any GCDs until your Standard Finish and Technical Finish resolve due to them being bound to the GCD—and since we are talking about GCD skills here with Flourished procs and Saber Dance—that is why I have stated that the durations are 5s and 7s, respectfully.

I’m not even discussing the math here—I know that the hit for SF and TF come before the 5s and 7s (at 3.5s and 5.5s, respectfully). I’m talking purely about the duration of the skills themselves, which I think is important to note provided the conversation we were having about Flourish, utilizing the Flourished procs, and Saber Dance utilization.

Yes. It is important. Which is why I started that it takes at least 8 seconds to use all four Flourish moves back to back.

[Oxdarock]

This is incorrect: Technical takes 7 seconds and Standard takes 5 seconds. Technical and Standard are both on the GCD (they are not oGCDs), but when you use them, they lower your base GCD to a 1.5s GCD. Meaning you have 1.5s > 1 > 1 > 1.5s for Standard (for a total of 5s) and 1.5s > 1 > 1 > 1 > 1 > 1.5s for Technical (for a total of 7s). The Step and the Finish are both bound by the 1.5s GCD change, so the entire process of a Standard Step and a Technical Step are 5s and 7s, respectfully.

This actually caught me in the beginning to. When it comes to weaponskills, the math is reversed. So for example, if your GCD were 2 seconds and you multiplied it by 5, the number you get is actually when the 6th GCD comes out. So with Standard Step, it goes 1.5+1+1= 3.5. That's when you can use Standard Finish. Same thing goes for Tech Step/Finish.