Upcoming ninja changes for 5.08 and 5.1

[armandojc3]

From the live letter this morning. Ninja damage will be slightly increased in 5.08 but the job will be reworked for 5.1. Trick attack will remain (ugh) so the job will stay low personal dps.

Just remove that damn trick attack already.


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Q1:
As a ninja player in Savage, when comparing DPS with other melee DPS I feel like the potency increase to Gust Slash was not enough for our overall damage. Our damage feels lacking for the amount of difficulty when playing the job. Any plans for ninja adjustment?

A1:
Many players provided feedback regarding ninja, so we touched on the topics via a presentation slide.

The development team believes the following three points are the main issues

◆Ninjutsu and mudra combinations being disrupted by GCD timing causes clunkiness.
Ninjutsu is easily influenced by lag, and we were reaching a limit as to how we could adjust it, so we are planning to restructure ninjutsu itself. The playstyle of putting together mudra will remain, but they will not be weaved between GCDs.

Instead, we are thinking the playstyle will be something along the lines of:
Use a combo > use ninjutsu > return to combo

However this adjustment would require readjusting ninja’s entire DPS, so we were unable to make the adjustments in time for patch 5.05. Therefore these adjustments will be made in patch 5.1.
◆Too many inputs are required to perform rotations for maximum damage output.
We are reconsidering the combo rotation.
◆The party utility of Trick Attack and ninja’s total damage output need to be balanced.
We will be increasing ninja's personal damage in patch 5.08. However, Trick Attack has a lot of influence over the party’s DPS, so the values will be adjusted with this in mind. Additionally, as mentioned above, please keep in mind that these adjusted values may be readjusted again in patch 5.1

[cactuarzzzz]

When is 5.08 release date?

[CrashofZenki]

So... Instead of boosting NIN, they are gonna simplify it by making it a Melee DNC? Why cant they just freaking rework TA already and make us actual Assassins with actual damage. Ninja as a party buffer should have ended with them saying they wanted to remove synergy on the classes....

If they are to simplify NIN, then I aint gonna bother playing it anymore. It was pretty much the only class I enjoy playing BECAUSE of how hard it is to master. The only issue I had with it personally was how low pDPS and rDPS it gave despite the effort placed into it COMPAIRED to classes you can pretty much do 1-2-3 combo on.

The MNK changes was justified because of it being harder to play than SAM for sure. But they should have showed the same love for NIN. Make them up there with MNK.

Balancing should in first term be done by how hard a class is to play, THEN take into account any synegry.

Excusing themselves with "Oh no, we cant because bla bla would be perma META" is a lame and short minded excuse. Even if a class might fit perfectly in a meta doesnt mean the person playing the meta job is gonna perform to the hight of which the meta would result in a higher output than "unconventional" groupings.

Just because a job has the POTENTIAL to be "OMG OP PLZ NERF" Doesnt mean it should be unless a high majority of the players hit the numbers needed to kill another spot.

Even back in previous expansions NIN was never highest even accounting rDPS, so I dont get the focus on batteling META. Sheep voices should not dictate actual facts.

Just because people thought they needed a NIN for a static over lets say a MNK, doesnt give room to punish NIN for the short thinking of players.

Square Enix, dont take the easy way out. Make NIN how they should be. An actual Assassin, a master of dualweilding. A Killer, A lone wolf... Not a glorified team Buff. Because if this keeps going you might as well remove all its abilities except Trick Attack and have it do one ability every minute.

Thank you.

[ForteNightshade]

The MNK changes was justified because of it being harder to play than SAM for sure. But they should have showed the same love for NIN. Make them up there with MNK.

Actually, the Monk buffs epitomizes why balancing based on job difficulty or complexity doesn't work. Samurai is supposed to be the selfish DPS that offers nothing but raw damage yet Monk obliterates it in every aspect. It offers better personal damage, raid DPS and even some party utility with Mantra. Speaking purely pragmatically, Samurai has been rendered worthless because Monk does everything better. The same issue currently plagues the Casters. One could argue Summoner is far harder to play than Black Mage yet the latter dominates it all because the devs are once again obsessing over Raise as a utility.

Put simply, job complexity should only exist for aesthetic and enjoyment. A lot of people previously attracted to Ninja enjoyed it being a harder job to master while still feeling impactful. Simply buffing it to kingdom come accomplishes nothing except to push out another job. Stormblood showed exactly that, where the three overwhelmingly preferred jobs were Ninja, Dragoon and Bard because they all synergized better than anything else. Does that mean Trick Attack needs to go? Maybe. I do think the devs overcompensated because they're afraid Trick will cause Ninja dominate once again. So that needs to be addressed one way or another.

[Kabooa]

The same issue currently plagues the Casters. One could argue Summoner is far harder to play than Black Mage yet the latter dominates it all because the devs are once again obsessing over Raise as a utility.

https://www.fflogs.com/zone/statistics/29

Summoner has the same amount of usage as Black Mage.

https://www.fflogs.com/zone/statistics/25 Alphascape
https://www.fflogs.com/zone/statistics/21 Sigma
https://www.fflogs.com/zone/statistics/17 Alpha

[Reylin]

(...) make us actual Assassins with actual damage.
(...) Make NIN how they should be. An actual Assassin, a master of dualweilding. A Killer, A lone wolf... Not a glorified team Buff.

I agree in about every respect.
I main NIN in the hopes that one day, it'll turn into an independent Assassin class.

Off the top of my head, Ragnarok had a solid Assassin design. High speed, high dps, multiple cloaking options, positioning options, poisons, dualwielding - etc.
Here I am playing with mudras, being a TA-delivery system in dungeons, embarrassing myself in raids and throwing looks at SAM that say "hey, you know what? let me try that katana."

I don't know.

[osutin]

snip

Part of me agrees with you, but don't you think jobs should be balanced by their performance when played to their highest potential? If one job is more difficult than the others but performs markedly better when executed perfectly, it will become meta. MMOs aren't fighting games - the difficulty isn't all wrapped up in execution. I think it's short sighted (and probably impossible) to balance jobs based on average level of play. The average aptitude of the playerbase as a whole probably increases over the life of an expansion as people improve and less dedicated players leave the game, so classes balanced that way would need constant reworking (this is just a theory, I have no numbers to support this).

Just my 2 cents. NIN definitely needs a buff, I just think the design philosophy should aim to equalize jobs based on optimal performance.

[Kabooa]

Part of me agrees with you, but don't you think jobs should be balanced by their performance when played to their highest potential? If one job is more difficult than the others but performs markedly better when executed perfectly, it will become meta. MMOs aren't fighting games - the difficulty isn't all wrapped up in execution. I think it's short sighted (and probably impossible) to balance jobs based on average level of play. The average aptitude of the playerbase as a whole probably increases over the life of an expansion as people improve and less dedicated players leave the game, so classes balanced that way would need constant reworking (this is just a theory, I have no numbers to support this).

Just my 2 cents. NIN definitely needs a buff, I just think the design philosophy should aim to equalize jobs based on optimal performance.

People will chase the highest DPS. It's that simple.

[Shurrikhan]

Not sure how I feel about the Ninjutsu changes. Rather, I'm pretty sure I hate the idea of making them more clunky by putting them on the GCD, rather than simply switching to client-side. Frankly, I wouldn't care that much if some few in tens of thousands of NIN were hacking to complete their Ninjutsu a little earlier than they otherwise could' it'd be visible to those watching (and recording), and would be just as bannable as any other form of speed-hacking. The reward is more than worth the risk.

And if we're so worried about GCD disruption, why not just allow them to be woven, as well? Ready your Ninjutsu and you have 5 seconds, regardless of other actions, to use it. Voila, no huge rDPS buff, but it's less clunky (rather than more, as per the suggested changes).

I enjoy NIN's APM. I just want more rDPS from it, just as I do for SMN, MCH, BRD, RDM, SAM, and DNC. (Or, alternately, from all those but SAM, and MNK and BLM reeled in a little.)

[CrashofZenki]

Snip!

Agree with this, they should indeed be client side, its the One beats all answer to permanently remove mudra latency.
I have also been into the thought of having the mudra be opened to GCDs between imputs. I do not see a reason why this cant be a thing. Ofc, for someone who is in a hectic part of a fight and a little derpy can end up messing it up. aka... It keeps the NIN complexity, while making room for different latency values.