Thread: Upcoming ninja changes for 5.08 and 5.1

Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

Frankly, I wouldn't care that much if some few in tens of thousands of NIN were hacking to complete their Ninjutsu a little earlier than they otherwise could' it'd be visible to those watching (and recording), and would be just as bannable as any other form of speed-hacking. The reward is more than worth the risk. /snip

Wait what? And now they would have to police that too? That's a very bad idea

Originally Posted by Ardox

Wait what? And now they would have to police that too? That's a very bad idea

Given the client-side shift, especially if paired with a slightly shorter animation lock per mudra, the difference would be at most some 700 potency over a ~10-minute fight, and follows under the exact same rules and regulations they already police in PvP.

I'd rather greatly benefit 99.999% of the NIN population, even if it means a (nearly imperceptible) further advantage for the .001%.

Originally Posted by armandojc3

◆Ninjutsu and mudra combinations being disrupted by GCD timing causes clunkiness.
Ninjutsu is easily influenced by lag, and we were reaching a limit as to how we could adjust it, so we are planning to restructure ninjutsu itself. The playstyle of putting together mudra will remain, but they will not be weaved between GCDs.

Instead, we are thinking the playstyle will be something along the lines of:
Use a combo > use ninjutsu > return to combo

However this adjustment would require readjusting ninja’s entire DPS, so we were unable to make the adjustments in time for patch 5.05. Therefore these adjustments will be made in patch 5.1.

Wait, so they may end up as combo finishers after certain moves are used, like with DRG? That sounds weird but MIGHT work.

Originally Posted by armandojc3

◆Too many inputs are required to perform rotations for maximum damage output.
We are reconsidering the combo rotation.

Thank god. I'm leveling NIN right now and it makes no sense that you have to put in more effort for less damage than the other classes. SAM takes less work than NIN, and that makes no sense IMO.

Originally Posted by CrashofZenki

So... Instead of boosting NIN, they are gonna simplify it by making it a Melee DNC? Why cant they just freaking rework TA already and make us actual Assassins with actual damage. Ninja as a party buffer should have ended with them saying they wanted to remove synergy on the classes....

If they are to simplify NIN, then I aint gonna bother playing it anymore. It was pretty much the only class I enjoy playing BECAUSE of how hard it is to master. The only issue I had with it personally was how low pDPS and rDPS it gave despite the effort placed into it COMPAIRED to classes you can pretty much do 1-2-3 combo on.

The MNK changes was justified because of it being harder to play than SAM for sure. But they should have showed the same love for NIN. Make them up there with MNK.

Balancing should in first term be done by how hard a class is to play, THEN take into account any synegry.

Excusing themselves with "Oh no, we cant because bla bla would be perma META" is a lame and short minded excuse. Even if a class might fit perfectly in a meta doesnt mean the person playing the meta job is gonna perform to the hight of which the meta would result in a higher output than "unconventional" groupings.

Just because a job has the POTENTIAL to be "OMG OP PLZ NERF" Doesnt mean it should be unless a high majority of the players hit the numbers needed to kill another spot.

Even back in previous expansions NIN was never highest even accounting rDPS, so I dont get the focus on batteling META. Sheep voices should not dictate actual facts.

Just because people thought they needed a NIN for a static over lets say a MNK, doesnt give room to punish NIN for the short thinking of players.

Square Enix, dont take the easy way out. Make NIN how they should be. An actual Assassin, a master of dualweilding. A Killer, A lone wolf... Not a glorified team Buff. Because if this keeps going you might as well remove all its abilities except Trick Attack and have it do one ability every minute.

Thank you.

This isn’t true, in games such as WoW it was common for rogues/assassins to have abilities which increased damages itself and others did. Making targets vulnerable etc etc.

The difference is this game takes RDPS into account. And no. It wasn’t “said” it was proven by speed kills. Ninjas we’re requirement in a perfect comp. this isn’t fixable but just saying “oh wow well ignore it” isn’t the answer either.

I hope they nerf TA to 120 sec CD bringing its rdps to 450. And letting it be buffed up in pdps.

You kinda missed the point. The only way NIN was in a perfect comp was if the group itself consisted of a full group of amazing players. It all comes back to my statement of... Even in a 0.1% Chance of a NIN being OP, dont punish the 99,9% of the rest. And seeing how you reacted to my claims, I believe you are in the exact same boat as the other hivemind META this META that people. Just because it can be amazing, doesnt mean everyone NEEDS one. And quite frankly WANT one. If your DPS is average in your raid group, dont go for a NIN expecting the group to be carried by AMAZING rDPS. So cut the crap, and think for yourself and actually test things out.

And that comes back to my original concern... If they cant get people to understand that meta isnt always meta, then they should rework or remove TA. And make the DPS up to the current level of difficulty.

*Mic Drop*

Originally Posted by CrashofZenki

And that comes back to my original concern... If they cant get people to understand that meta isnt always meta, then they should rework or remove TA. And make the DPS up to the current level of difficulty.

*Mic Drop*

Why should we remove iconic design still enjoyable to many just because it's overestimated by the informational equivalents of human centipedes? Why should job design pander to games of telephone and ill-informed or obsolete regurgitation?

Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

Why should we remove iconic design still enjoyable to many just because it's overestimated by the informational equivalents of human centipedes? Why should job design pander to games of telephone and ill-informed or obsolete regurgitation?

*looks around the forum*

*looks at Camera*

Originally Posted by Kabooa

*looks around the forum*

*looks at Camera*

Don't get me wrong, I'm all for discussing changes in playflow, just not based on bad facts. If more NIN players would absolutely find NIN more enjoyable without TA than with it, and the raiding as a whole wouldn't suffer too much for its loss, then that's that. I just don't want that decision to be made on the false idea that TA is inherently overpowered or unable to be balanced, when it's not.

Originally Posted by Drayos

This isn’t true, in games such as WoW it was common for rogues/assassins to have abilities which increased damages itself and others did. Making targets vulnerable etc etc.

The difference is this game takes RDPS into account. And no. It wasn’t “said” it was proven by speed kills. Ninjas we’re requirement in a perfect comp. this isn’t fixable but just saying “oh wow well ignore it” isn’t the answer either.

I hope they nerf TA to 120 sec CD bringing its rdps to 450. And letting it be buffed up in pdps.

NIN wasn't a top-tier rDPS by the end of Stormblood. Only one NIN across the top 20 speedruns for each Alphascape boss was highest in rDPS among its party. In a SAM-optimized comp, NIN was used, but provided less rDPS (tDPS, if you want to be clearer in the indirect vs total contribution distinction) than SAM. Every comp which was optimal for any other job would include jobs which would outperform NIN at the highest levels of play, even if that comp was also optimal for the NIN itself. They performed well across virtually all compositions -- though still in burst-alignable compositions better than ones with less punctual or more flatly sustained damage -- but were the masters of none (although within a usually negligibly small distance from mastery).

The whole idea of a "selfish DPS" is completely backwards. A NIN performed its best when not only it performed to the highest level, but its team did, too. A SAM will do a SAM's contribution regardless of the party. It does its contribution -- the same contribution -- affected only by damage-adjusted jump or phase-shift timings. A NIN, by having so much of its contribution carried by its team, requires high party performance as well.

Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

NIN wasn't a top-tier rDPS by the end of Stormblood. Only one NIN across the top 20 speedruns for each Alphascape boss was highest in rDPS among its party. In a SAM-optimized comp, NIN was used, but provided less rDPS (tDPS, if you want to be clearer in the indirect vs total contribution distinction) than SAM. Every comp which was optimal for any other job would include jobs which would outperform NIN at the highest levels of play, even if that comp was also optimal for the NIN itself. They performed well across virtually all compositions -- though still in burst-alignable compositions better than ones with less punctual or more flatly sustained damage -- but were the masters of none (although within a usually negligibly small distance from mastery).

The whole idea of a "selfish DPS" is completely backwards. A NIN performed its best when not only it performed to the highest level, but its team did, too. A SAM will do a SAM's contribution regardless of the party. It does its contribution -- the same contribution -- affected only by damage-adjusted jump or phase-shift timings. A NIN, by having so much of its contribution carried by its team, requires high party performance as well.

u could argue this with every Job.

What about Dancer and RDM Which sits at the bottom of the DPS List due to Utility they bring and more?.. u cant just gut out Utility for Pure DPSers because of this. Raiding is about Being Apart of a party aiming to achieve high performance. you cannot Just remove this from a game for one job because of these reasons and not do it across the board and we'll slowly reach a point of everyone being a Pure DPS.