Summoner Early Post-Launch Feedback at level 80

[Exodus-E]

1. Remove or alter egis, remove DoTs.

I'm completely against removing them, since they're integral to this game's lore.
So "altering" will have to do, I guess.

2. Emphasize the trance and primal-based rotation from a very low level.

I think they're fine the way they are, level-wise.
Maybe post-Lv.60 would do it.

5. Fixed demis that aren't a pain to work with!

On that, we can agree.
They'd simply need to alter Dreadwyrm Trance so it works just like Firebird Trance (ie. temporarily replacing Ruin III + Outburst and integrating Demi-Bahamut into it).

6. Temporary one-shot summons!

I mean...that's more or less how Demi-Primals currently work.
They just need to further emphasize that particular aspect of them.
Like say, using their respective Enkindles immediately on entry/exit (similar to MCH's turret).

7. Basically a ground up rework of the class to focus on demi primals and things that can make the summoner feel more thematically like a summoner, with all mechanics designed from the ground up to actually focus on and fit with this thematic style so the class feels thematic.

And this is the point where I completely disagree with you.
Each FF game has its own "take" on certain jobs and stuff.
Otherwise, Scholar wouldn't get fairies, Dark Knight would be sacrificing its HP for certain attacks (and not being a tank), etc...

[HeulGDarian]

Basically a ground up rework of the class to focus on demi primals and things that can make the summoner feel more thematically like a summoner, with all mechanics designed from the ground up to actually focus on and fit with this thematic style so the class feels thematic.


Unlike short-term changes, long term changes require substantial redesigns to the class, its rotation, its flow, its very feel at a raw gameplay level and will require a lot of time to implement. As with the short term wishlist, it need not be all of these things, but at the end of the day it would still be a rework of the class to actually focus up the class and make it feel like a summoner. I'm intentionally being vague because I don't have an exact vision of how it should work, only a vision of how it might work, and would rather the devs looked at the feedback from the class and went: "Let's rework the class to make it feel like a summoner" instead of "Oh, the class really likes egis or dots or summons or this or that" and focuses the class in too many directions. Demi-summons are the core of Summoner's thematic identity, and everything should thematically revolve around that.

(0)

We don't have to reinvent the wheel just give the 4.1 aetherflow trance link, remove festerruins , give old further ruin , fix the cooldowns/damage numbers , fix the egis and make them rewarding , and when the new demis come make them able to change the dots with their power. If you think about it without the dots we will never be able to get a dot based demi power up.

not just me but multiple people have said its summoner is different from each other . you don't have to alienate half the summoner population if you like how the new demis function all you have to do for more of that is wait. i Don't think you will ever feel un-summoner when you ll have 3 demis ,3 fixed rewarding egis and demi upgraded dots.

Ok i was going to leave it at that but the more i read this part the more angry i got . just when you finally brought out ideas we could discuss upon just as easily you make it hard to be looked as sensible like a great job interview were in the end you signed as BigDx69xX . as i said if you like the demis the devs will keep providing. but you don't care about that you want arcanist to be removed . ill answer it once again the job and arcanist make perfect sense it is not a warlock . every job has a dot it happened that the devs gave us miasma and bio and at start it did work like a warlock . the more the job developed the more summoning actions it learned as it should ,you can see that on the lead up to learning how to summon more summons and picking bahamut. the summoner line is a mage line and like every mage he has more than 1 trick up his sleeve . The core of summoning is arcanima wether you like it or not it has a build up it is completely justified through out not just the smn story but the main one as well and unless they destroy their own storyline including the main villain and their own magic system they won't ever be split apart from one another. So pls if you don't think having a summoner who does things in order to make a summon that matters and instead you want a flashy job that's all about showing , PLS forget summoner . you didn't like summoner you liked a spell and not only that you're trying to forcefully eject out everyone who is invested to this job. whatever summoner you played and loved to death is not this one. we dont have and Don't want to have our job destroyed for your own idealism . Your proposal of rework suits only your needs not summoners.

[HeulGDarian]

I'm completely against removing them, since they're integral to this game's lore.
So "altering" will have to do, I guess.


I think they're fine the way they are, level-wise.
Maybe post-Lv.60 would do it.


On that, we can agree.
They'd simply need to alter Dreadwyrm Trance so it works just like Firebird Trance (ie. temporarily replacing Ruin III + Outburst and integrating Demi-Bahamut into it).


I mean...that's more or less how Demi-Primals currently work.
They just need to further emphasize that particular aspect of them.
Like say, using their respective Enkindles immediately on entry/exit (similar to MCH's turret).


And this is the point where I completely disagree with you.
Each FF game has its own "take" on certain jobs and stuff.
Otherwise, Scholar wouldn't get fairies, Dark Knight would be sacrificing its HP for certain attacks (and not being a tank), etc...

and samurai would be a tank who throws coins. come on dude you left the best one on etc xD

[HeulGDarian]

Something else by the way. lore connected.

It has been shown time and time again that arcanima allows something more than just controlling a conjuration.
lahabrea
Ysayle
the pope
zenos
Emet selch
When will we be able to transform ourselves? When will summoner reach the pinnacle of arcanima. (funny thing scholar also provides a cure for that in case of fuck up on his lore)
w8 hang on the last fight his own form looking exactly like zodiark from ff12 is our pinnacle materializing as hydaleyn o.o

[Taranok]

I'm completely against removing them, since they're integral to this game's lore.
So "altering" will have to do, I guess.

Lore is a poor excuse to justify keeping a class broken. The Egis can be worked in in different ways without having a pet that constantly drags the design of the class down. Having consistent lore is important. Having a class that feels good to play is more so.

I think they're fine the way they are, level-wise.
Maybe post-Lv.60 would do it.

Having a class that constantly changes its styles where a primary, CORE mechanic of it isn't even acquired until level 60 is not good design. Machinist suffered from this in SB where you couldn't even realistically use heat until 62, and got no real benefit until 64. Getting a core mechanic at 60, 70, and 80 is bad design. 80 is at least semi-justifiable because it's expanding on the mechanic, but 60 for a core class mechanic is not. (Okay, technically 58, but still). Even Black Mage suffers from this both critically (Fire 4, Umbral Hearts) and less critically (Every QoL change post 60 that should be gotten sooner).

I mean...that's more or less how Demi-Primals currently work.
They just need to further emphasize that particular aspect of them.
Like say, using their respective Enkindles immediately on entry/exit (similar to MCH's turret).

By one-shot, I mean it summons, does a single attack, and then leaves.

And this is the point where I completely disagree with you.
Each FF game has its own "take" on certain jobs and stuff.
Otherwise, Scholar wouldn't get fairies, Dark Knight would be sacrificing its HP for certain attacks (and not being a tank), etc...

Nothing about what you said has any bearing on the current summoner or its problems.

Do you want a class that is broken by design just because of lore? Do you want the class to ever live up to its hypothetical potential? Because dragging it down due to the poor design decisions of the past no longer aging well or because of story is a terrible excuse. Summoner as a class design has suffered long enough. It needs to be fixed, and fixed properly. And short of a full rework, it will never be fixed properly. It can have a unique take on the class compared to past iterations, that's fine. But it needs to be a functional, coherent class.

[HeulGDarian]

Lore is a poor excuse to justify keeping a class broken. The Egis can be worked in in different ways without having a pet that constantly drags the design of the class down. Having consistent lore is important. Having a class that feels good to play is more so.



Having a class that constantly changes its styles where a primary, CORE mechanic of it isn't even acquired until level 60 is not good design. Machinist suffered from this in SB where you couldn't even realistically use heat until 62, and got no real benefit until 64. Getting a core mechanic at 60, 70, and 80 is bad design. 80 is at least semi-justifiable because it's expanding on the mechanic, but 60 for a core class mechanic is not. (Okay, technically 58, but still). Even Black Mage suffers from this both critically (Fire 4, Umbral Hearts) and less critically (Every QoL change post 60 that should be gotten sooner).



By one-shot, I mean it summons, does a single attack, and then leaves.



Nothing about what you said has any bearing on the current summoner or its problems.

Do you want a class that is broken by design just because of lore? Do you want the class to ever live up to its hypothetical potential? Because dragging it down due to the poor design decisions of the past no longer aging well or because of story is a terrible excuse. Summoner as a class design has suffered long enough. It needs to be fixed, and fixed properly. And short of a full rework, it will never be fixed properly. It can have a unique take on the class compared to past iterations, that's fine. But it needs to be a functional, coherent class.

1) HE isn't asking to keep the job broken he is saying your i want to rework the class cause this isn't a summoner is UTTER SUBJECTIVE BULLSHIT. the pet doesn't drag the design down youre just so into your BULLSHIT that you can't see how much alike they are to a constant demi if fixed.
2) mch didn't suffer from that mch suffered cause you got punished from building the resource and from having to withhold building the resource mch wasn't a mess cause of 3.0 he was a mess cause of the 4.0 mechanic they added that couldn't be taken back.
3) a summon that does a single attack and then leaves is an egi that doesn't auto attack does an enkindle and then fcks off this isn't satisfying gameplay this is just fester with more animation.
4) Smn isn't broken by his lore . 4.1 summoner worked perfectly his dots worked bahamut felt amazing aetherflow lead up to trance was flexible and maybe the egis would have been fixed by now if you stopped griefing about the parts that were fine and are easily fixable by simple reverting the stupid change.

[HeulGDarian]

HERE LET ME WRITE IT AGAIN

No problem that occurred now existed in 4.1 smn . ITS not smn being tied to arcanist that hurt us it was the changes that occurred this time ALL we have to do is revert the changes . JUST so that once it gets back the flow it lost then we can fix the problem that is the egis . for now they made a good start by giving more of a niche to titan and making them instant and they became a bit more imaginative with garuda . hopefully we will see more on it like an ifrit gap closer but first we need bahamut to become better . suggestions have been said through out the forum so hopefully we will see something in the 5.1 .

[XValenusX]

It would be nice if Bahamut was just a turret, or his abilities would activate while moving. the movement from this new tier really hampers Bahamut's effectiveness without a lot of fight knowledge and practice. Fixing Bahamut in place and making it so his abilities had larger range would make him feel less clunky

[Shougun]

It would be nice if Bahamut was just a turret, or his abilities would activate while moving. the movement from this new tier really hampers Bahamut's effectiveness without a lot of fight knowledge and practice. Fixing Bahamut in place and making it so his abilities had larger range would make him feel less clunky

I think it would be pretty good idea to ensure Summoners pets are able to do what they're told when they're told , for all Demi/Egi. Personally would hope they add dashing and perhaps a bit longer range though, but keep that movement aspect of them. Something to the effect that if they weren't in range of the intended target (range increased too) they would very quickly barrel roll / dash towards the position and then use the ability.

That and smooth out any delays between commands, such that there isn't really that stutter when you command your pet to do something and when it reads that command and the stutter it creates for yourself (each expansion it feels faster and faster though which is nice). Maybe add a sort of soft GCD just for pets but that they don't interrupt your own casting. Such that you could be casting your arcanist spells (dots/ruins) and command your pet to do something else during that cast (without it interrupting your cast), but then all the egi abilities go on a very short "egi"gcd. I know that is sort of similar to how they used to do it all themselves but I actually like that SE moved the skills into your control (more primal skills is good, imo), just that I think it could be helpful that you're able to weave easier.

So that soft 'egi'gcd would prevent smashing them all out in the first second and allowing players a finger spider dance break and SE to balance summoner DPS/rate of casting better, so you can very smoothly weave abilities but you're also not expected to weave the entire stack at once. With some delay added you'd weave longer but a lot easier since you could be casting and use them at the same time and maybe a bit more thought in which one you'd use since one would put the other on a cooldown. Albeit it'd very short cooldown, like normal GCD (though still that can add to priority of what's needed "now"), it might also allow them to add more damage to those weaves as you'd not be blowing the entire stack as quickly. Would need to take a long took at the timeline though.. if shifting stuff like that (what it does to the buff windows and such). It's not too frantic against a striking dummy , but I can imagine the current setup gets pretty hectic in hard content lol (which is why I suggested maybe they can ease the weaving).

[Atamis]

You keep saying "we" and "our" job like you own the thing. That "Join Date: Jun 2018" under your portrait seems to indicate you are only a recent SMN who likes the warlock feel and feels hell bend on keepign the status quo.