Ninja is weak, like very weak.

[Nedkel]

But fflogs already does that for you, no need to calculate it yourself.
You can just look at the rDPS numbers, which already redistribute numbers based on damage buffs (see https://www.fflogs.com/help/rdps).
What you should not do is manually add damage from TA to rDPS, that would be counting TA twice.

So all in all you're making a good point, if TA was twice as strong as it is now ninja would bring the same overall damage to the raid as a black mage.

Oh didnt realise it was already a thing.
So according to it, ninja indeed is underperforming by 10% anyway, so i was wrong, should get another buff.

[aiqa]

Out of everyone, I feel worse for Samurai, a class with 0 raid buffing that's sitting solidly behind Monk and Dragoon.

Monk buffs were probably well over the top, but everyone's pretty much said that.

For samurai you should also interpret the correct metric, and make sure you don't count things twice.
The metric where samurai does lower damage than a dragoon already includes the raid buffs.
When you look at their personal dps a samurai does better than a dragoon, though a monk is still quite a bit higher.

Now of course rDPS on samurai is a bit lower than a dragoon, but it's not like lower rDPS and no raid buff.
It's more like lower rDPS because of no raid buff, or because of very slightly low-ish pDPS.

[Katie_Kitty]

Someone has to be at the bottom. Would you prefer the dancer mains have to be there? The Bards / Machinists? The question is always what is the spread. Anything more than about 10% DPS potential should probably be looked at.

But simply: Any job that relies on raid utility is going to have less dps because they make the raid better due to their lack of dps. Total raid dps due to trick attack is basically added to NIN DPS total. That's what many aren't doing here and it's not arguing from an honest stand point.

If you want NIN DPS to be higher, Trick Attack needs to be lowered.

Pointing to raid buffs as justification for low DPS worked before but it doesn't work anymore. We now know through rDPS rankings on fflogs that raid buffs do not even come close to making up the difference and that selfish DPS are the exclusive masters of the DPS rankings even when you take into consideration buffs. If anything, we know today that raid buffs need to be made stronger not weaker.

[TaiyouSeishin]

NIN is a melee, therefore would only be taken in a slot people would keep for melee (except for those who who dont mind being melee heavy for.... reasons? Prolly for giggles). So you take a nin, who does less pdps than the others, for their dps utility (that is meant to increase the whole groups dps) that... makes the whole group have less dps over all. (2k drop in pdps, plus even if 1k rdps from trick = dps loss)

The logs show rdps now. Rdps is pdps+ utility dps benefit. Nin isnt worth taking over another melee.

[Kaethra]

Someone has to be at the bottom.

If the bottom of DPS was like the bottom of Tanks or Healers, there wouldn't be an issue. If they were 1-2% behind BLM and not 20-30% they'd be better off. Trick Attack I'll agree needs to be moved to another class. A melee DPS is melee DPS. It needs to be doing heavy damage.

Again I'll say it. Ninjas have been the heaviest damage in previous FF games. Rogue, the class behind the Ninja job has likewise always been heavy hitting across MMORPGs for 20 years. Nothing about rogue screams I'm gonna buff peoples damage.

[TheMightyMollusk]

Doesn't help that ninja also lost its enmity management niche, since....well, unless your tank is spectacularly terrible, enmity management doesn't really exist anymore.

[SamSmoot]

http://www.darklegacycomics.com/558

Yea, it's a WoW comic,. but it applies to this thread as well

[TankHunter678]

How far do you think NIN is behind other melee DPS, honestly?

At current NIN sits ~1000 rDPS behind monk, ~900 behind DRG, ~400 behind SAM. Except for E3S it only gets worse. At E3S NIN maintains position relative to the other melee DPS but winds up doing decent damage compared to all DPS jobs overall.

[TaiyouSeishin]

At current NIN sits ~1000 rDPS behind monk, ~900 behind DRG, ~400 behind SAM. Except for E3S it only gets worse. At E3S NIN maintains position relative to the other melee DPS but winds up doing decent damage compared to all DPS jobs overall.

Firstly at what percentile are you looking. Or are you giving estimated averages.

Secondly, the fact that even after figuring rdps (pdps + utility contribution) its still falling short is the issue ppl have. You are not going to take a ninja when even after working extra for trick you still better taking another melee.

Third, oh ninjas are doing secent conpared to other dps? Does this mean ninja can pick up a ranged slot in a party?

[TankHunter678]

Firstly at what percentile are you looking. Or are you giving estimated averages.

Secondly, the fact that even after figuring rdps (pdps + utility contribution) its still falling short is the issue ppl have. You are not going to take a ninja when even after working extra for trick you still better taking another melee.

Third, oh ninjas are doing secent conpared to other dps? Does this mean ninja can pick up a ranged slot in a party?

75th Percentile:

E1S: https://www.fflogs.com/zone/statisti...s=65&class=Any
E2S: https://www.fflogs.com/zone/statisti...s=66&class=Any
E3S: https://www.fflogs.com/zone/statisti...s=67&class=Any
E4S: https://www.fflogs.com/zone/statisti...s=68&class=Any

At E3S NIN somehow climbs over all the ranged except BLM perhaps due to lack of positionals. At E4S the numbers are so close that NIN is more or less interchangeable with any of the non-BLM ranged.