RDM and the Utility Tax

[Kolsykol]

If they took away the spammable ress, i'd probably stop playing red mage. It is what makes red mage stand out, it's the one unique thing nobody else can do, and it's a thing that can easily save entire runs. I can't count how many times i saved a run single handed through the resses. This is what i like about red mage. I don't play savage and hardly ever extreme, i'm talking about pugs here for normal raids or alliance raids. Not everyone spends most of their time in static groups like you'd think reading this forum, only a small percentage does.

Yes, red mage lags behind in a good group that has practice with the content and hardly makes any mistakes. But red mage is far ahead in content where people do make a seizable amount of mistakes, like pugs or groups on duty finder tend to do. Not every class has to be the same at everything they do. The different classes should have their different identities and uses. Don't turn red mage into the same as every other DPS class in the game.

I don't think that anyone is arguing that they all need to be the same or that it should be removed.
But why should there even be a '' tax '' on utility that is so situational and dependent on other people messing up?

It makes sense if the utility is always useful like Trick Attack for example, but I don't think that it makes much sense when someone basically needs to die in order for it to count ( or multiple people really, healers can still ress if it's just one person really ).

[Ardox]

It matters a great deal, actually. If it's a GCD it means we have to stop attacking to cast the spell, on top of the MP cost. That's a Dualcast or Swiftcast we could have spent on a Verthunder/aero.
If it's off-GCD, it's completely free to use, and we can simply slide it in after any instant spell at no DPS loss whatsoever.



How often are you rezzing, exactly, that 2 charges you can toss out in a row is too few, but 3 is "maybe even" too much?

Thing is, the fact you can raise a healer and/or tank entirely for free, especially if the former can do the remainder of the rezzing, is a large part of its massive potency. If you actually have to throw out three or more rezzes in a row, and more than two of those are non-DPS, you're likely wiping.



I like the idea of a stacking debuff, but -25% is far too much. Using it even once would put our DPS lower than healers -- at that point you may as well just have the healers full-cast Raise. Hell, we'd be punished more harshly for using it even once than SMN's tax for only being able to throw one instant Raise out!

Depending on how much the gap between casters is hypothetically reduced, somewhere between 5-10% per stack is plenty to get the point across, I think.

Raise will never be on oGCD: They made raise hard cast time 8 seconds for healers so if they don't have quickcast they'd need to find a 8 seconds window to raise someone OR wait up to 60 sec. When RDM first came out I was extremely surprised there was no exception on dualcast for verraise. Also, even healer have to spend a GCD to raise someone.. It would made the skill incredibly awkward for a caster DPS to have and that solution would probably backfire (nerfing RDM because they have super instant and free raises).

If you really want to see RDM's DPS up there's simpler solution.
Eg.: they could just augment the mana cost of verraise. Make it take half RDM's MP, now you'll certainly won't be able to chain raise people and that would cripple the utility enough to explain the personal DPS increase.

[Ardox]

I don't think that anyone is arguing that they all need to be the same or that it should be removed.
But why should there even be a '' tax '' on utility that is so situational and dependent on other people messing up?

It makes sense if the utility is always useful like Trick Attack for example, but I don't think that it makes much sense when someone basically needs to die in order for it to count ( or multiple people really, healers can still ress if it's just one person really ).

I think people overlook too much the fact we also have vercure. SMN healing move is a joke, but RDM healing is really potent. Personally, I don't think the tax is on Verraise, I think it's on Vercure

[wereotter]

One problem with the DPS that come with raise-based utility is that if nobody dies, that utility still gets paid for. Past progression, it obviously ends up with these jobs being left to the wayside.

I'd propose some sort of 'life link' trait or ability for DPS that gain part of their value from resurrection skills. Essentially, so long as no member of the party dies, they should provide a small buff to either personal or raid DPS. Once someone dies, the buff is lost. Fluff it as being able to channel everyone's concentrated aether or something.

That, or think up some other form of raid utility that raise-capable DPS can provide when things aren't strictly going pear shaped.

The main problem I see with this idea is the same problem that comes when working for a construction company. Workers that work on buildings alot of times receive a safety bonus at the end of a job if there are no accidents during the job life cycle. This bonus disappears for EVERYONE on the crew if just one person has to make an injury claim. Alot of times that person is then ostracized by the rest of the crew for costing them their bonus even if the injury was completely unavoidable or was the fault of company policy. The same would happen here. Anyone that died the first time would catch no end of grief for costing the raid their precious damage buff.

I could see this working in a way that red mages gain a stacking buff when they use enchanted redoublement, perhaps a small stacking buff, like 1-2% additional damage as a permanent increase, but using verraise eats up all those stacks?

Also I would add that if you look at rDPS on FFlogs red mages are currently the weakest DPS job in the game, meaning that the penalty for having vercure and verraise is pretty big. One easy fix to this is to change our one damage utility move. Remove the fall off potency from embolden, no other utility skill gets diminishing returns over time, and have it buff other casters, like like devotion does, possibly with a slightly increased duration so that it can actually cover our full burst window. As is, it now falls off before I can finish my second melee combo under manafication, whereas last expansion I could get two verholy casts off under the embolden window.

[Kolsykol]

I think people overlook too much the fact we also have vercure. SMN healing move is a joke, but RDM healing is really potent. Personally, I don't think the tax is on Verraise, I think it's on Vercure

Tbh I don't even think that there should be a tax on that either.
I don't think that a dps should be taxed in what their role actually is just because they have a potent heal or a ress, because in the end of the day you shouldn't be healing or ressing to begin with.
I see Vercure more as a solo thing really.

BLM for example should obviously be higher I think, but I don't think that the mindset going into it should be '' we need to tax RDM cuz Verraise and Vercure ''.
Even as a BLM main I don't feel like RDM needs to suffer a tax just because they have very situational utility that I don't have.
I honestly see Embolden as more '' tax worthy '' than Vercure and Verraise, even tho it's only for physical.

[wereotter]

Tbh I don't even think that there should be a tax on that either.
I don't think that a dps should be taxed in what their role actually is just because they have a potent heal or a ress, because in the end of the day you shouldn't be healing or ressing to begin with.
I see Vercure more as a solo thing really.

BLM for example should obviously be higher I think, but I don't think that the mindset going into it should be '' we need to tax RDM cuz Verraise and Vercure ''.
Even as a BLM main I don't feel like RDM needs to suffer a tax just because they have very situational utility that I don't have.
I honestly see Embolden as more '' tax worthy '' than Vercure and Verraise, even tho it's only for physical.

exactly this. Vercure in raid only has two uses: keeping yourself alive if you messed up and took damage you shouldn't have and triggering dual cast during a boss jump phase. Considering second wind and bloodbath exist, should we punish all the melee jobs for having a self heal that can be used off global cooldown?

[Sequora]

I personally wish they designed casters like they did ranged physical DPS this expansion. MCH = Low utility high damage, BRD = Medium Utility Medium Damage, DNC = High Utility High Damage. BLM already has zero utility highest damage. I think SMN could use a boost to push it a bit higher than it is. RDM could use a slight boost to DPS, but should remain under SMN, as it has more utility. I actually think SMN and RDM are too close in terms of damage.

[miraidensetsu]

For me, RDM should be the NIN of the casters. Full of utilities, buffs, CCs and so on just to represent better its 'white' side.

About ress, Phoenix Down should be able to be used inside combat, with a 10 seconds cast time and stockpiled at 999. And all those skills that used TP should take its toll on MP, not just some tanks (DRK, PLD), casters and healers.

[wereotter]

I personally wish they designed casters like they did ranged physical DPS this expansion. MCH = Low utility high damage, BRD = Medium Utility Medium Damage, DNC = High Utility High Damage. BLM already has zero utility highest damage. I think SMN could use a boost to push it a bit higher than it is. RDM could use a slight boost to DPS, but should remain under SMN, as it has more utility. I actually think SMN and RDM are too close in terms of damage.

If we look at utility, summoner and red mage are pretty evenly matched.

Battle raise? Check. Both can use it. Red mage can just use it more easily, since summoner tends to use swift cast in its rotation.

Damage buff? Check. Summoner, I think, has the slightly better skill here with devotion as it's a straight 5% damage buff for all damage types for 15 seconds. Devotion has fall off on its potency and only buffs physical. However devotion is a 180 second cooldown while embolden is 120 second, so it's close.

Healing? Check again. Everlasting flight is a 600 potency heal for the entire party that gets applied as part of the summoner rotation. Vercure is a 350 potency cure (700 potency if you also use your dualcast) on a single target, and interrupts your DPS rotation to use.

Summoner utility may be less readily used, but all three components are there the same as red mages, and so the two jobs should be doing approximately the same damage, but at the moment, they do not.

[Ardox]

Tbh I don't even think that there should be a tax on that either.
I don't think that a dps should be taxed in what their role actually is just because they have a potent heal or a ress, because in the end of the day you shouldn't be healing or ressing to begin with.
I see Vercure more as a solo thing really.

BLM for example should obviously be higher I think, but I don't think that the mindset going into it should be '' we need to tax RDM cuz Verraise and Vercure ''.
Even as a BLM main I don't feel like RDM needs to suffer a tax just because they have very situational utility that I don't have.
I honestly see Embolden as more '' tax worthy '' than Vercure and Verraise, even tho it's only for physical.

No argument against here. I'm just pointing out you can keep the tank alive while the healer accept your raise, or help top a health bar in a panic.. Vercure might not feel like as "important" as verraise, but can be use in a lot more situations