RDM and the Utility Tax

[Naryoril]

I agree that it helps RDM stand out, which is one of the reasons I'm against simply taking it away and making it a role action on a cooldown.
That and the age-old "Black Mages shouldn't be casting Raise" line.

As I said in the OP, the furthest I would go is either putting it on a charge system so we can still use it multiple times per fight but a free oGCD, so it costs us nothing to cast but still comes at a cost to our potential just to hold... or reducing (key word, not removing) the damage gap we have with BLMs but highlighting the penalty of casting Verraise, so that we are only taxed for using it.

I think whether it's GCD or oGCD hardly matters. Ressing someone is an insane rDPS or raid healing boost, so to speak, no other skill has a similar "potency". Of course, given its nature, it can only be used if someone screwed up. And i don't like the charged version either. Either the maximum number of charges is so low that it's far behind our current capabilitiy (for example with just 2) and thus destroying the identity and the reason i personally play red mage, or it is so high that it would be crazily overpowered (4 and more, maybe even 3) if it came with no mp cost (if it came with one, what would be the point of changing it?).

As an idea on how to solve the issue of keeping the ressing identity and capability, but allowing to close the DPS gap to other classes for good groups where our biggest utility doesn't come into play, how about a stacking debuff every time we raise? For example -25% damage for a minute or something like that, can stack up to 3 times for a 75% penalty, or maybe just add another minute for every ress. This way we get a hefty DPS penalty when we use our utility, but if it isn't needed, we could deal DPS closer to other classes.

[Archwizard]

I think whether it's GCD or oGCD hardly matters.

It matters a great deal, actually. If it's a GCD it means we have to stop attacking to cast the spell, on top of the MP cost. That's a Dualcast or Swiftcast we could have spent on a Verthunder/aero.
If it's off-GCD, it's completely free to use, and we can simply slide it in after any instant spell at no DPS loss whatsoever.

And i don't like the charged version either. Either the maximum number of charges is so low that it's far behind our current capabilitiy (for example with just 2) and thus destroying the identity and the reason i personally play red mage, or it is so high that it would be crazily overpowered (4 and more, maybe even 3)

How often are you rezzing, exactly, that 2 charges you can toss out in a row is too few, but 3 is "maybe even" too much?

Thing is, the fact you can raise a healer and/or tank entirely for free, especially if the former can do the remainder of the rezzing, is a large part of its massive potency. If you actually have to throw out three or more rezzes in a row, and more than two of those are non-DPS, you're likely wiping.

As an idea on how to solve the issue of keeping the ressing identity and capability, but allowing to close the DPS gap to other classes for good groups where our biggest utility doesn't come into play, how about a stacking debuff every time we raise? For example -25% damage for a minute or something like that, can stack up to 3 times for a 75% penalty, or maybe just add another minute for every ress. This way we get a hefty DPS penalty when we use our utility, but if it isn't needed, we could deal DPS closer to other classes.

I like the idea of a stacking debuff, but -25% is far too much. Using it even once would put our DPS lower than healers -- at that point you may as well just have the healers full-cast Raise. Hell, we'd be punished more harshly for using it even once than SMN's tax for only being able to throw one instant Raise out!

Depending on how much the gap between casters is hypothetically reduced, somewhere between 5-10% per stack is plenty to get the point across, I think.

[ArchlordPie]

It matters a great deal, actually. If it's a GCD it means we have to stop attacking to cast the spell, on top of the MP cost. That's a Dualcast or Swiftcast we could have spent on a Verthunder/aero.
If it's off-GCD, it's completely free to use, and we can simply slide it in after any instant spell at no DPS loss whatsoever.



How often are you rezzing, exactly, that 2 charges you can toss out in a row is too few, but 3 is "maybe even" too much?

Thing is, the fact you can raise a healer and/or tank entirely for free, especially if the former can do the remainder of the rezzing, is a large part of its massive potency. If you actually have to throw out three or more rezzes in a row, and more than two of those are non-DPS, you're likely wiping.



I like the idea of a stacking debuff, but -25% is far too much. Using it even once would put our DPS lower than healers -- at that point you may as well just have the healers full-cast Raise. Hell, we'd be punished more harshly for using it even once than SMN's tax for only being able to throw one instant Raise out!

Depending on how much the gap between casters is hypothetically reduced, somewhere between 5-10% per stack is plenty to get the point across, I think.

I don't think he realizes that the res sickness debuff is 25% and stacks to 50%.

Why would I want to give myself a res sickness equivalent, even if it means getting another player back in the fight? Even worse, if I have to chain res 3 or 4 people and my debuff stacks to 75%, I've now made myself weaker than the people who died twice. At that point I'd rather just wipe a perfectly salvageable run and reply to the inevitable "wtf res you dumb ****" comments with "die less".

[Ardox]

It matters a great deal, actually. If it's a GCD it means we have to stop attacking to cast the spell, on top of the MP cost. That's a Dualcast or Swiftcast we could have spent on a Verthunder/aero.
If it's off-GCD, it's completely free to use, and we can simply slide it in after any instant spell at no DPS loss whatsoever.



How often are you rezzing, exactly, that 2 charges you can toss out in a row is too few, but 3 is "maybe even" too much?

Thing is, the fact you can raise a healer and/or tank entirely for free, especially if the former can do the remainder of the rezzing, is a large part of its massive potency. If you actually have to throw out three or more rezzes in a row, and more than two of those are non-DPS, you're likely wiping.



I like the idea of a stacking debuff, but -25% is far too much. Using it even once would put our DPS lower than healers -- at that point you may as well just have the healers full-cast Raise. Hell, we'd be punished more harshly for using it even once than SMN's tax for only being able to throw one instant Raise out!

Depending on how much the gap between casters is hypothetically reduced, somewhere between 5-10% per stack is plenty to get the point across, I think.

Raise will never be on oGCD: They made raise hard cast time 8 seconds for healers so if they don't have quickcast they'd need to find a 8 seconds window to raise someone OR wait up to 60 sec. When RDM first came out I was extremely surprised there was no exception on dualcast for verraise. Also, even healer have to spend a GCD to raise someone.. It would made the skill incredibly awkward for a caster DPS to have and that solution would probably backfire (nerfing RDM because they have super instant and free raises).

If you really want to see RDM's DPS up there's simpler solution.
Eg.: they could just augment the mana cost of verraise. Make it take half RDM's MP, now you'll certainly won't be able to chain raise people and that would cripple the utility enough to explain the personal DPS increase.