5.05 "Balance" - Samurai and Ninja

[Arkenne]

In ShB it took MONTHS for people to accept SAM in parties after the "buffs".
You're repeting the same stupid mistake as you did with ShB.

I understand it was out of rage, but you meant SB, right? ShB has been out barely for a month.

I was a bit overexcited to see Hagakure back, but its too bad that it was just a missleading announcement.

Oh well, Im still maining it, maybe also lvling MNK now that RoF has finnaly got rid of its riddling -15% sks.

[Tatsemaru]

If you think sam has no positionals..you dont know the job well. Kasha is side combo and gekko is back combo

[Rigus]

At least we can reset sen now I guess.

[Wavaryen]

At least we can reset sen now I guess.

That was the whole main point that people said the reason why we needed it back. So be careful what you wish for. :P

[Vendalwind]

How do people still think this is true? The best-case scenario as of 5.0 is that missing a positional on SAM translates to at least 64 potency lost. This is because Shinten, the main SAM Kenki dump, is a 320 potency skill at the cost of 25 Kenki. 320/25 = 12.8 potency per Kenki. 12.8x5 (the Kenki lost for missing a positional) = 64. No other class loses 64 potency if they miss a positional. And this is the lowball estimate; if you end up missing a positional and have to overwrite a Sen in order to Kaiten+Midare you're talking at least 360 potency lost from that wasted Sen.

The rest of what you say I agree with, but SAM absolutely needs to hit it's positionals in order to perform at it's best.

What in the actual??? You realize TA is a positional right?
And monk positional loss is WAY higher than SAM, you cant compare single positional loss to single, given that MNKs have tons more positionals.

[TaiyouSeishin]

What in the actual??? You realize TA is a positional right?
And monk positional loss is WAY higher than SAM, you cant compare single positional loss to single, given that MNKs have tons more positionals.

Not to mention that a missed positional with TA is more than a pdps loss >.>

[Quor]

What in the actual??? You realize TA is a positional right?
And monk positional loss is WAY higher than SAM, you cant compare single positional loss to single, given that MNKs have tons more positionals.

When did I say anything about NIN? I was addressing the misinformation that SAM can miss positional and not suffer a damage loss, nothing more. Don't put words into my mouth.

[Quor]

Ok, so a SAM being out of position for, lets say 30 seconds, and a Monk being out of position for 30 seconds ...lets see. Or want to make it a minute? Or want to compare 5 kenki loss vs. lost crit on Bootshine?

Or lets assume both are standing in FRONT of the boss as their individual worst-case scenario?
In which of these scenarios does the SAM get punished more heavily than the MNK?

The only theoretical example is when the SAM misses their positional, and the MNK hits each and everyone EXCEPT the one that the SAM also misses. The SAM loses 64 potency once every 10 GCDs if fighting from the wrong position. In that timeframe, the MNK has about 14 GCDs, of which half miss 20 potency (plus, if he stands on the side, crit), making it a comfortable 140 lost. Not to mention, by the way, that due to the multiplicative nature of the GL buff, MNK is more sensitive to losing base potency as he gains more damage per points of potency.

Or, simply take your SAM and your MNK, go to a practice dummy, and see it for yourself. There is a reason why bad player SAMs outperform bad player MNKs significantly.

Do remember that the 64 potency loss is a "best case" scenario. Overwriting a Sen is the worst-case scenario, and results in a loss of 360 potency. Playing SAM at level 60 content provides a perfect example of how important hitting their positionals is to the performance of the class. Nailing both Gekko and Kasha means you can always Kaiten every time you get 3 Sen, but missing one of those positionals means you are forced to overwrite a Sen in order to get the Kenki for Kaiten.

[Darkstride]

When did I say anything about NIN? I was addressing the misinformation that SAM can miss positional and not suffer a damage loss, nothing more. Don't put words into my mouth.

I believe they are responding to the "no other job loses 64 potency from missing a positional" part. Trick Attack has a positional and if you miss it, the debuff is not applied. A missed Trick Attack amounts to more than 64 potency.

[Vendalwind]

When did I say anything about NIN? I was addressing the misinformation that SAM can miss positional and not suffer a damage loss, nothing more. Don't put words into my mouth.

No other class loses 64 potency if they miss a positional.

your initial post quoted a post that referenced MNK, NIN, and SAM in a thread about SAM and NIN.
My assuming you were also maintaining the context of the thread was fully appropriate.
Additionally I in my statement am still just continuing the context of the thread. Yes missing a positional with SAM does have a great effect, but their positional requirements, are in point of fact, still far less demanding than monks.

And if a NIN misses a TA positional it's far worse than either.

Thankfully with the 2 charges of T. north to occasionally ignore positional requirements neither SAM nor NIN other than in opener moments have to over stress their positions.

MNK on the other hand cannot cover anywhere near his needs with true north.

A TA loss is even on a pdps level a loss of 160 potency + 5 GCD * 10% potency + typically at least one NINjustu 10% potency, Plus any other weaved oGCDs 10% + any effects from an aligned Bunshin.

+.....The massive raid potency loss.

So the case still remains.
Of the three discussed here SAM positional loss is the LEAST devastating of the 3. And by far.

Additionally if a positional window is closed for the NIN and he puts out a trick late because of it the entire rest of his rotation AND the rDPS of the group, is now F***ed because that 10-20second misalignment can not be rectified.

SAMs single positional can be nearly entirely covered by true north. And since they also have less weaving than NIN, and more GCD gap than MNK they should never have a situation where anything is even sacrificed by activating true north.