5.05 "Balance" - Samurai and Ninja

[Chimiko]

Hi, SE.

All i want to know is the though process you guys are doing when you decide to leave both NIN and SAM in the dirt with your so called "Balance" changes. There are 2 melee slots in a raid group. Two of those being DRG/MNK 99% of the time thanks to your changes.

NIN and SAM has NO use in a raid group atm. You pushed MNK over the edge to become even better than they are atm.

So in all honesty. I would very much like to know what you guys though off when your 14bilion company decided to ignore all the SAM and NIN's out there and leaving them to fend for themself. Do you guys even have a balance team or does these "buffs" just randomly appear out of a magical hat or do you have your interns working on the job balance of the game?

Anyone with half a brain will look at the numbers and realize.. "Oh damn, these 2 arent really preforming great, we problay goto do something about it".

In all fairness, i hate to say it but you guys are incompetent when it comes to balance. Even if you do balance these jobs out in a month or two. The damage is already done thanks to your shit fest of a balance team. Community preception of a job is WAY stronger than anything you can do at this point.

In ShB it took MONTHS for people to accept SAM in parties after the "buffs".
You're repeting the same stupid mistake as you did with ShB.

So Square-enix, Yoshi-P or whoever is doing the lead-design for jobs.

You guys need to step-up, cause you're not doing a good job right now.

[Laur1x]

Ayy my two main jobs and the only two that interest me.

Welp, at least Classic WoW is around the corner!

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[JisKing98]

I’m hoping come patch 5.1 we get a complete overhaul for ninjas, summoners, especially Sam, sch, drk. They all need changes immediately.

[Niyuka]

To be frank, if MNK SAM and NIN would put out the exact same rDPS, SAM would be meta because its easiest to play and needs no positionals. As soon as you give NIN or MNK a buff to accommodate for that, they are meta and SAM is "worthless".

The theorycrafting meta community will always crown ONE King, not several. And lets not get started talking about 8-man vs 4-man vs. 24-man.
Could it be closer? Of course. But I dont see how you can have 4 melee classes all balanced with each other without the meta picking one over the rest. NIN has been an oppressive presence in the game since its release.

I am certain you can clear Savage with a NIN in your party. Or with a SAM. Or even with both! You dont just have to go BLM BLM BLM DRG to get anywhere.

But as long as not every class is exactly the same and plays the same, you can always claim one is superior.

[Adventica6]

Well with the changes to MNK they are definitely a heavy hitter and a good choice for a raid, not really any reason to choose a sam over a MNK or a nin over a mnk..

You have a choice of Mnk + Drg or Sam + Nin for your raid group, which do you choose ? the group who does 900 more dps or the group who does 900 dps less (combined) ? buffing the strongest jobs and leaving the weakest jobs to rot just makes you look bad.

[Niyuka]

I dont like "buff strong, leave weak alone" at all, dont get me wrong. But in your example, if I had only these 2 choices, I would go by player skill known to me. The difference between a good and a bad player is FAR in excess of the DPS difference of their classes. I have seen insane differences in groups of Titania EX and Innocence EX, even between SAM and BLM pairs.

Personally, I would prefer classes to be closer together, by nerfing the top and buffing the very bottom. But that would make the entire game more difficult and SE is deathly afraid of that (plus the playerbase is now used to a really low difficulty level. Look how after WotLK turned most of the playerbase into wrath babies, Cataclysm was deemed too hard even though Burning Crusade was MUCH harder.)

Right now, with the possible exception of BLM vs. NIN (the two extremes) in a fight that is bad for melee, I would pick the player over the class.

[TimeraiderGaranyi]

Well with the changes to MNK they are definitely a heavy hitter and a good choice for a raid, not really any reason to choose a sam over a MNK or a nin over a mnk..

You have a choice of Mnk + Drg or Sam + Nin for your raid group, which do you choose ? the group who does 900 more dps or the group who does 900 dps less (combined) ? buffing the strongest jobs and leaving the weakest jobs to rot just makes you look bad.

Easy choice. Whatever is available.
The DPS-loss is not even slightly close to making a difference between faling or succes in any instance

[Quor]

To be frank, if MNK SAM and NIN would put out the exact same rDPS, SAM would be meta because its easiest to play and needs no positionals.

How do people still think this is true? The best-case scenario as of 5.0 is that missing a positional on SAM translates to at least 64 potency lost. This is because Shinten, the main SAM Kenki dump, is a 320 potency skill at the cost of 25 Kenki. 320/25 = 12.8 potency per Kenki. 12.8x5 (the Kenki lost for missing a positional) = 64. No other class loses 64 potency if they miss a positional. And this is the lowball estimate; if you end up missing a positional and have to overwrite a Sen in order to Kaiten+Midare you're talking at least 360 potency lost from that wasted Sen.

The rest of what you say I agree with, but SAM absolutely needs to hit it's positionals in order to perform at it's best.

[Wavaryen]

To be frank, if MNK SAM and NIN would put out the exact same rDPS, SAM would be meta because its easiest to play and needs no positionals. As soon as you give NIN or MNK a buff to accommodate for that, they are meta and SAM is "worthless".

The theorycrafting meta community will always crown ONE King, not several. And lets not get started talking about 8-man vs 4-man vs. 24-man.
Could it be closer? Of course. But I dont see how you can have 4 melee classes all balanced with each other without the meta picking one over the rest. NIN has been an oppressive presence in the game since its release.

I am certain you can clear Savage with a NIN in your party. Or with a SAM. Or even with both! You dont just have to go BLM BLM BLM DRG to get anywhere.

But as long as not every class is exactly the same and plays the same, you can always claim one is superior.

I spit out my coffee when you said no positional needed on sam. We are punished HEAVILY more so than Monks if we don't use ours. I'm not sure you understand sam very well.

[Niyuka]

I spit out my coffee when you said no positional needed on sam. We are punished HEAVILY more so than Monks if we don't use ours. I'm not sure you understand sam very well.

Ok, so a SAM being out of position for, lets say 30 seconds, and a Monk being out of position for 30 seconds ...lets see. Or want to make it a minute? Or want to compare 5 kenki loss vs. lost crit on Bootshine?

Or lets assume both are standing in FRONT of the boss as their individual worst-case scenario?
In which of these scenarios does the SAM get punished more heavily than the MNK?

The only theoretical example is when the SAM misses their positional, and the MNK hits each and everyone EXCEPT the one that the SAM also misses. The SAM loses 64 potency once every 10 GCDs if fighting from the wrong position. In that timeframe, the MNK has about 14 GCDs, of which half miss 20 potency (plus, if he stands on the side, crit), making it a comfortable 140 lost. Not to mention, by the way, that due to the multiplicative nature of the GL buff, MNK is more sensitive to losing base potency as he gains more damage per points of potency.

Or, simply take your SAM and your MNK, go to a practice dummy, and see it for yourself. There is a reason why bad player SAMs outperform bad player MNKs significantly.