What’s looking like the meta?

[HyoMinPark]

And this kind of thread is why I will never touch Savage or EX content.

Why? This is a fairly civilized discussion, so why the prejudiced comment? I'm genuinely curious as to why it bothers you so.

[HWalsh]

Why? This is a fairly civilized discussion, so why the prejudiced comment? I'm genuinely curious as to why it bothers you so.

I've played a *lot* of games, and the *meta* always starts to dictate how things are. Once the meta determines bad class is bad, people will exclude players of the bad class. It has happened in every game ever and, sadly, in a game like FF XIV (which I love) it is easy to change jobs. Anyone can become a Gunbreaker easily enough. Anyone can go from 60 to 80 in less than two weeks of dedicated level grinding.

To the harder core crowd we're already seeing, "Kicked because you don't allow your logs to be parsed." We're going to see, "Kicked because bad job is bad."

The Japanese players do this so much better than we do, generally they don't care. They are like, "Play whatever you want to play."

We're already seeking out which classes are good, better, or best. It always inevitably leads to people getting excluded because they aren't doing "the thing" and it just saddens me is all.

I won't do them because:
1. I play what I want, even if what I want is technically near the top of the slot for my role in the meta. (I play Paladin.)

2. I don't allow my logs to be parsed. I can go down a list of my rotation detailing exactly which second I use what ability to have maximum or near maximum efficiency - but I don't let others see my math. I've seen players rejected just for that reason.

I guess I just don't get it. The worst class in the meta, with a decent player, can clear the hardest content. Hardcore raids always overestimate what is needed to complete a segment.

It just always leads to exclusion.

[HyoMinPark]

I've played a *lot* of games, and the *meta* always starts to dictate how things are. Once the meta determines bad class is bad, people will exclude players of the bad class. It has happened in every game ever and, sadly, in a game like FF XIV (which I love) it is easy to change jobs. Anyone can become a Gunbreaker easily enough. Anyone can go from 60 to 80 in less than two weeks of dedicated level grinding.

To the harder core crowd we're already seeing, "Kicked because you don't allow your logs to be parsed." We're going to see, "Kicked because bad job is bad."

The meta only works in organized groups. Likewise, it only matters and works for those that are bleeding edge or who aspire to optimize. For the more casual, softcore, and even midcore raiders, meta doesn’t matter nearly as much as some like to think it does. It’s quite rare to see locks on jobs in Party Finder outside of duplicates from a job and role (in the past, this was so jobs like BRD and MCH didn’t have to roll against one another if their loot drops).

The only time jobs are actively and repeatedly locked out of groups is if they are as bad as 3.0 release AST (3.0 AST couldn’t do its basic job of healing, which is why it was often excluded from even casual things—I had friends who played AST on release that were kicked from dungeons because it was a chore to have an AST in there due to how weak they were) or if some jobs were utterly broken (3.4 AST was broken and stupidly overpowered with 20% Balance; 4.1 SMN was broken because I guess they input way too many zeros in its potencies when they adjusted it from 4.0 SMN). That’s when you’d see things be more one-sided.

In general party finders, there are very few specific job lock outs (e.g., NINs aren’t allowed because they’re weak) that are frequently wide-spread. Usually, locks happen because jobs are seen as traps where players that are playing them are not skilled enough (e.g., BLM and SAM in Stormblood were often seen as trap jobs because it wasn’t uncommon to get one that did less damage than the tanks). But, even so, these locks were not that common. It would be more common to see a physical ranged spot (BRD/MCH) locked last tier because healers wanted Refresh for their MP. Sometimes physical ranged would lock a DRG because 5% of their damage hindered on having one. But the locks were not very widespread whenever I was in PF on my data center.

Even with their existence, though, you are still within your right to not join parties that have locks if you disagree with them. There will be plenty of other parties that are completely open and don’t care.

There will always be a meta—by its nature, there will always be a most effective tactic available when it comes to raiding. The only way there will never be a meta is if every job played exactly the same and did the same amount of damage. Which would be extreme homogenization. Which people also do not like.



As for EX primals, none of this mattered—you’d only see “No duplicates” locks so that people weren’t competing for weapons. Most of what I’ve been talking about applies only to Savage. EX primals are kind of like whatever. As long as the group can clear smoothly and quickly for farming, that’s usually all PF cared for.

The Japanese players do this so much better than we do, generally they don't care. They are like, "Play whatever you want to play."

This is disingenuous to say. There are plenty of JP statics that do care about things like speedkilling, meta, and optimization. A lot of crazy parses with players doing fast kills and crazy high damage (due to ridiculous padding) can come from JP servers. JP’s pug scene doesn’t care, but they also play really safe and tend to not care as much about logs as NA/EU may.

That said, NA/EU aren’t JP; and this is fine. Why should we play like JP does? I wouldn’t like JP playstyles with safer strats that focus solely on getting the kill and not optimizing because that’s not why I raid. I like to see personal improvement—it’s about more than just “getting the kill” for me. But that’s me, and that’s why I’m in a static that can give me what I’m looking for. I don’t go into Party Finder looking for optimization because that’s not the place for it.

General NA/EU Party Finder Savage PUGs rarely try bleeding edge strats and just want a smooth kill for weeklies—at most they will rotate things like “uptime strat” or “line strat”/“box strat”. Occasionally, you may see a run up that labeled as a “speed run”, but they are few and far between for PUG Savage, and they’re explicitly stating what they want so that players who aren’t interested can avoid them.

We're already seeking out which classes are good, better, or best. It always inevitably leads to people getting excluded because they aren't doing "the thing" and it just saddens me is all.

Groups that are optimizing are seeking these things out. The casual raiders don’t care.

I won't do them because:
1. I play what I want, even if what I want is technically near the top of the slot for my role in the meta. (I play Paladin.)

Which is fine. You’re well within your right. A lot of players also play what they want—but sometimes hardcore groups request changes if a particular job is better for the sake of optimization (e.g., during Creator, the casters were in a very sticky spot because of the physical ranged buff wars that happened during the entirety of 3.x—plus, piercing was +10% damage, so some hardcore groups demanded BRD+MCH over casters). If you aren’t interested in hardcore raiding, this would not affect you, though. There are plenty of groups that don’t care that much about meta compositions and just play what the members like.

However, you can’t tell groups that want a meta comp that they can’t have it. They’re allowed to play how they want as well. So I don’t think it’s right to condemn people interested in the meta for their interest. They might have different prerogatives than you, and that’s fine.

You can also still find statics where you can play what you want with no issue. And, as I said above, meta has no impact on EX primals in PF. They’re EX primals.

2. I don't allow my logs to be parsed. I can go down a list of my rotation detailing exactly which second I use what ability to have maximum or near maximum efficiency - but I don't let others see my math. I've seen players rejected just for that reason.

Unfortunately, you cannot control if others parse. And it’s rare that you’d ever know about it since most players don’t talk about it in game.

That said, if a person tried to join a static that asked for proof of performance, and the static rejected this person due to them not providing it—they are well within their right to do so. The person applying didn’t meet their recruitment criteria and they wouldn’t want to risk getting someone who cannot perform. There is nothing wrong with that either, especially since there are plenty other statics that don’t care about logs and just want to raid for fun (I’ve been in these).

I guess I just don't get it. The worst class in the meta, with a decent player, can clear the hardest content. Hardcore raids always overestimate what is needed to complete a segment.

It just always leads to exclusion.

Of course. All jobs are viable and can clear content. No one is contesting that. At most, people are saying some jobs need help so that they don’t become ostracized (e.g., NIN, AST) or just so that they feel better to play in general.

But the thing with meta is it’s all about optimization. Some people find speedkilling and optimizing fun (I really like the latter and hope to actually achieve real optimization this tier—Alphascape turned into a mess with the group I was with at the time and I want to redeem myself after my general apathy that occurred last tier).

Some people want more than just the kill. Some people want to see progressive improvement in numbers. Some people like “beating their best” every week. There’s nothing wrong with that; that’s their prerogative. I don’t really think it’s within your right to condemn people for wanting to play the game a specific way—especially since it would never affect you unless you attempted to join groups with this type of playstyle in mind. Most people that are interested in optimization are in statics for it.

[Makeda]

The meta only works in organized groups. Likewise, it only matters and works for those that are bleeding edge or who aspire to optimize. For the more casual, softcore, and even midcore raiders, meta doesn’t matter nearly as much as some like to think it does. It’s quite rare to see locks on jobs in Party Finder outside of duplicates from a job and role (in the past, this was so jobs like BRD and MCH didn’t have to roll against one another if their loot drops).

The only time jobs are actively and repeatedly locked out of groups is if they are as bad as 3.0 release AST (3.0 AST couldn’t do its basic job of healing, which is why it was often excluded from even casual things—I had friends who played AST on release that were kicked from dungeons because it was a chore to have an AST in there due to how weak they were) or if some jobs were utterly broken (3.4 AST was broken and stupidly overpowered with 20% Balance; 4.1 SMN was broken because I guess they input way too many zeros in its potencies when they adjusted it from 4.0 SMN). That’s when you’d see things be more one-sided.

You are right in the first paragraph I quote - somewhat. I would say the meta only works for top tier organized groups. Not even just organized ones. But your point stands whether or not my limitation is true: meta isn't key for most.

That said... jobs get locked out of groups for whom the meta matters not at all.

The community overvalues the meta.

You only need to spend a few minutes looking at FC recruitment posts in places like reddit, discords like 'The Balance', and even on these forums to see that people pick teams by meta and exclude jobs they don't want. Even at low tiers of the game. Everyone believes they are a world first progression FC that is only being held up by that one member who refused to go meta... so they work to recruit to meta expecting it will help them more than working as a team will...

I know we all want to believe people accept anyone, or even that they will accept anyone who is good... but go look at recruitment posts. For every 'bring the player not the job' post, there will be a dozen 'meta or get lost' posts. And the moment the recruitment is happening on a non-SE forum, there is also the demand for logs...