Square Enix, please think about both Casual AND Hardcore crafters..

[Kabooa]

Being poor is less about how much gil you have and more about how easily you can spend and replace millions of gil. You barely need anything to get started though. I got my start making Sanguine Scepters with barely 200k to my name, which were the crafted base for the BLM relic weapon. That was something I could do in my crappy hodgepodge of leveling gear with no clue how or where to get better gear. I didn't have a blacksmith or an armorsmith leveled either, so I had to buy darksteel nuggets from the MB. As you get more money, it gets easier to make even more money, but everyone can spend within their means to increase efficiency and profit.

I see.

Can't say I changed my mind, but I appreciate the time. I will say I don't think this is going to gain much traction, though, I do hope you get something you like. Otherwise I'll stick by my recommendation of Black Desert. I found the craft empire building there much more interesting.

[Nixxe]

I see.

Can't say I changed my mind, but I appreciate the time. I will say I don't think this is going to gain much traction, though, I do hope you get something you like. Otherwise I'll stick by my recommendation of Black Desert. I found the craft empire building there much more interesting.

If I quit FFXIV, I'm done with MMORPGs. They all just get ruined by people clamoring for "accessibility" anyway.

[CookiesNCreams]

I see.

Can't say I changed my mind, but I appreciate the time. I will say I don't think this is going to gain much traction, though, I do hope you get something you like. Otherwise I'll stick by my recommendation of Black Desert. I found the craft empire building there much more interesting.

How is Black Desert’s Crafting system?

[Kabooa]

How is Black Desert’s Crafting system?

On an individual crafting level it's honestly kind of horrid. Black Desert is more about building the empire behind it, but given progression is entirely money based, you get what you put into it. On a basic level, it's a more managerial system. Get workers, levels workers, get land, assign them to land, amass resources, transport resources to your home city, refine resources, then either sell said resources or use them to craft items and sell items.

It's a pretty effective time trap. The next time you find a lull or so, the game usually goes on sale often and it's a low pay wall entry with no subscription. Worth trying out. Isn't for everyone.

[Granyala]

You're literally arguing that it's a good thing because it gives you less of a reason to play this game. You are the last person anyone in SE should cater to. Stop trying to take the game away from people who enjoy it, to say nothing of insisting you're doing us a favor in doing so.

Correct, although I do believe I didn't make my intentions clear enough:

Games have addictive tendencies to it. These can be enforced through design or mitigated.
A responsible game DEV finds a balance and puts in restrictions in order to avoid that the players damage themselves.
If a design basically requires you to no-life it in order to get anywhere (Hello, ARR spiritbinding), that is a harmful design, should be considered as that and be avoided.

This has nothing to do with "geeking out" over a game or taking things away from people. I like to geek out over Lore and class design as much as the next guy and certainly won't chastise people for being invested into these things.
You don't have to design the game as a soul crushing RNG grind in order for people to have fun. What I am advocating here is not "less game" in a strict sense but more "different game".

I am advocating: less dumb, mindless time requirement and more skill/brainpower requirement.
I want to see more intelligent games and less tedious ones. I want to use my head in order to achieve success and not be beaten simply because I have life, other hobbies and a job and cannot dedicate an absurd amount of time into a video game.
An example of that kind of system would be the old WoW vanilla PvP ranks that basically required 24h play to stay at the top, account sharing included.

That should be in all our interest because using our brains is much more fun that doing the same mundane thing over and over and over and hope that some RNG decides that you will now be granted "success".

In that regard: yes, I totally agree that the current crafting system is too mindless and easy. So was the old one.

Because Savage and Ultimate are in many respects their own reward, so removing the gear from them doesn't actually do much.

Yeahh.. no. Sorry, nope.
As a raider with about a decade of experience, I can tell you that individuals that stick through 100s of wipes for the sake of the challenge are few and far inbetween. Certainly not enough to form a healthy raiding community. Sadly (and this is where a lot of inner raid conflicts stem from) most people are in it for the shinies.

Personally I always hated farming bosses for gear. I don't care about gear at all (barring looks for kitty dress-up of course ). If it were up to me, we would kill a boss once or twice and then move on to the next. Because the challenge has been beaten and that boss no longer holds my interest.

[CookiesNCreams]

On an individual crafting level it's honestly kind of horrid. Black Desert is more about building the empire behind it, but given progression is entirely money based, you get what you put into it. On a basic level, it's a more managerial system. Get workers, levels workers, get land, assign them to land, amass resources, transport resources to your home city, refine resources, then either sell said resources or use them to craft items and sell items.

It's a pretty effective time trap. The next time you find a lull or so, the game usually goes on sale often and it's a low pay wall entry with no subscription. Worth trying out. Isn't for everyone.

Money based? As in actual money or in game money? D:

[Nixxe]

Correct, although I do believe I didn't make my intentions clear enough:

...

Because the challenge has been beaten and that boss no longer holds my interest.

If you want to talk about addiction, look in a mirror. You aren't comfortable going without rewards from a part of the game you don't like playing and insist on subjecting yourself to. Contrast with those of us who enjoy it and do it because of that. I quit this game regularly when it gets in the way of other things I feel are more important and I routinely make the decision that certain rewards aren't worth it and shrug my shoulders and move on with my day. If you have a problem, that's your personal business and it should be kept that way. Don't demand to inflict it on the rest of us, especially not while pretending you're anyone a favor. Crafting has never been a soul crushing grind and if you feel differently, then grow the backbone to say, "Hey, this is not fun and I will not spend my time doing this." Don't try to "help" people who do enjoy it by taking away their fun.

And yeah, sorry, nope. I also have extensive raid experience and at a fairy high level at that. Most of the gear-driven players are in lower ranked guilds and never get much past that. I also don't consider them worth thinking about because they're some of the worst people to have in your raid and if they all quit, the raid scene would be a better place after the initial collapse and restructuring of lower end guilds. At higher levels you have a much, much higher concentration of people who are there to push themselves and do difficult content. Gear is valued, certainly, but it's not the primary motivation. Then of course you have a ton of people at all levels who enjoy the social aspect of raiding.

[Kabooa]

Money based? As in actual money or in game money? D:

...Yes.

The money thing is that you advance by enhancing gear. Gear itself generally has baseline differences (This one might upgrade crit, this one might upgrade attack power) but the relative damage to each other is the same as long as the item's enhancement level is equivalent..

Now, you can farm your gear enhancing items or you can buy them from the market that other players put up. And farming them is generally a painstaking process, so your best option is to use the market. In game currency.

However.

The game store itself sells "Convenience items" but all these items effectively make it easier to make money. Some people do the math, and on a basic level, a singular type of item from the store cuts the amount of In-Game Currency you need by at least 75%, just due to the way it works.

Then you have costumes that allow you to Refine From Your Bank instead of your own inventory, which means while in a city and refining materials you have no actual weight limit.

Then you have inventory boosters meaning you can farm longer, you have pets that auto loot for you so you don't have to stop, you have weight limit boosts so you don't have to sell junk at a town as often...

You get the idea.

At a baseline, 10 dollar entry free, BDO is perfectly....serviceable. If you're looking for something that rewards a 24hour/day player, it'll do the trick. Just know that at the base level, you're probably never going to catch up to the people who have been playing from the start.

In my opinion, it's perfectly fine as a game between your main game content lulls. By itself, it's only for a particular type of player.

[Granyala]

If you want to talk about addiction, look in a mirror. You aren't comfortable going without rewards from a part of the game you don't like playing and insist on subjecting yourself to.

This sentence makes no sense at all.
I merely craft in order to be self sufficient. I don't like feeding other players gil in order to get raidfood etc. Once leveled I don't do much with the crafters unless I need sth. There is no addiction here on my side at all, in fact, Ifalna is already in maintenance mode.

I go "Hey, this is not fun and I will not spend my time doing this." at plenty of aspects in the game, don't worry. I am old enough to decide what it worth my time and what is not.

Only when people clamor for games to go back to the ways of time invested > everything else, I do voice a countering opinion because I consider it a stupid design choice.

As for raiding: yup, the top tier doesn't have the problems with the gearheads (I always envied that) but alas not everyone has the skills in order to compete at that level and I have no shame in admitting that I am one of them. It's not about practice etc either. I just cannot react fast enough, and I know my limits. Shit happens.

[Joven]

After reading through this entire thread (for some reason), I've noticed that the OP and their proxy conveniently gloss over the suggestion of making their own, challenging rotation:

I mean, if all you care about is a challenge, you can always set one for yourself in the way you suggested SE does it - by slef-imposing certain limitations, like not using certain skills at all or maybe never letting your IQ-stacks reach more than 5, not using any food or melded gear etc.
If its the challenge and the puzzle you care about, I'm sure you can come up with all sorts of those!
...but thats not the impression I've gotten so far - you seem to care much more about being rewarded for a challenge and having this reward be exclusive and locked behind hardcord-crafting (which seems to translate to "I want crafting to be an RNG-base time-sink").

Just because you have the easy option doesn't mean you're forced to use it.

They also seemed to conveniently ignore when someone asked for examples of how they would change things to make crafting more challenging:

I'm a bit confused here. What, exactly, do you want to have happen in order to facilitate your concept of hardcore crafting?

What has to be removed (or added) from the current game?

And how will this requested change affect casual crafters?

Is this a 'casuals are not worthy' issue?

Someone on the hardcore crafting side mentioned economics in a post. I assume if anyone can craft HQ gear, the pricing of such gear on the Market Board is reduced. Is this a reason (not necessarily the only one) that hardcore crafters are dissatisfied with the way things are going?

Instead of just demanding SE do all the work to 'fix' crafting to make it more challenging for you, offer suggestions. Something like increasing the CP cost of Prudent Touch, or removing it entirely. Remove Steady Hand II and Careful Synth III, I dunno, I'm just tossing out ideas, but at least I'm making an effort.

I can agree that if you're willing to put in the effort then you should be rewarded, but for something like crafting there really is no way to have 'peak' crafters without making crafting so arduous that only those type of people would bother with it. As others have said, a lot of people already view crafting to be too difficult to bother with, would you now want to drive off everyone else for the satisfaction you seek?