Summoner Early Post-Launch Feedback at level 80

[ShadowNyx3]

I posed this question in another thread but for the top raiders, would it be better to add Demi-Bahamut to DWT or remove Demi-Phoenix from FBT?

Removing Phoenix is the better choice. Adding Bahamut to DWT might seem like an improvement but it doesn't address the rotation's main problem which is its rigidity with the main damage phases.

Removing Phoenix from FBT sounds crazy and I'm sure that most people would be up in arms but it falls more in line with what would help the job feel better and that is creating another window of free movement and weaving capability. If Summoner is going to be forced to weave as many oGCDs as they have, having the FBT as another opportunity to freely weave everything they have (like the job plays from 72-79), is going to make movement less punishing and improve the general flow. Additionally, and most importantly, what this does is it realigns the Demi-summons into the "downtime" windows while making the only requirements to access them the completion of a trance phase, which, if FBT would take on its own Deathflare like DWT, can be manipulated to end whenever you want to allow the use of your Demi-summon whenever you want. When you look at it this way, the trances would essentially become what Aetherflow has been since Heavensward, just that now they don't need you to spend AF actions to unlock them.

I'm sure anyone can see that there's plenty of new issues that would come out of this, such as: the added damage of Fountain of Fire/Brand of Purgatory still leaving an imbalance between DWT/FBT, the added weaves of needing to press a Summon Phoenix button and two Revelations outside of a trance, Phoenix taking on the general clunkiness of having to hard cast through its phase just like Bahamut, and others most likely. However, for the purpose of answering your question and solving the biggest fundamental problem with this job as it exists now, separating Phoenix from FBT unlocks the handcuffs that have tied Summoner's wrists to their ankles. The rest can be smoothed out with some polish.

[HeulGDarian]

Removing Phoenix is the better choice. Adding Bahamut to DWT might seem like an improvement but it doesn't address the rotation's main problem which is its rigidity with the main damage phases.

Removing Phoenix from FBT sounds crazy and I'm sure that most people would be up in arms but it falls more in line with what would help the job feel better and that is creating another window of free movement and weaving capability. If Summoner is going to be forced to weave as many oGCDs as they have, having the FBT as another opportunity to freely weave everything they have (like the job plays from 72-79), is going to make movement less punishing and improve the general flow. Additionally, and most importantly, what this does is it realigns the Demi-summons into the "downtime" windows while making the only requirements to access them the completion of a trance phase, which, if FBT would take on its own Deathflare like DWT, can be manipulated to end whenever you want to allow the use of your Demi-summon whenever you want. When you look at it this way, the trances would essentially become what Aetherflow has been since Heavensward, just that now they don't need you to spend AF actions to unlock them.

I'm sure anyone can see that there's plenty of new issues that would come out of this, such as: the added damage of Fountain of Fire/Brand of Purgatory still leaving an imbalance between DWT/FBT, the added weaves of needing to press a Summon Phoenix button and two Revelations outside of a trance, Phoenix taking on the general clunkiness of having to hard cast through its phase just like Bahamut, and others most likely. However, for the purpose of answering your question and solving the biggest fundamental problem with this job as it exists now, separating Phoenix from FBT unlocks the handcuffs that have tied Summoner's wrists to their ankles. The rest can be smoothed out with some polish.

beside the fact that SE doesn't want smn rotation to get larger than it already is thus making the possibility of bahamut and dwt unifying much more likely. the reason you get this large window is cause firebird trance gives the instant cast on fountain of fire if you removed them it would feel just as bad as bahamut does currently . Also the trance can never be like aetherflow one is a 15 seconds buff with a finisher which even if you don't use the finisher it will end the other is 3 charges that can be used whenever you want in a 60 seconds window allowing you to adjust how fast you want the rotation to get the maximum dps benefit . the only way for the trance to become the same as an aetherflow is by making the duration the same as the cooldown and even then using the finisher would feel bad since you would lose the buff it provides. Aetherflow already exists for having aetherflow i dont know why do we have to remove it aetherflow did it's job really good

[Mewthredel]

I've been playing SMN lately to practice it for prog on savages. There are a number of glaring issues with the class that I think if addressed could make the class much more enjoyable to play.
1) either lower the cd of tri by 10-15s or the trances by the same amount. This would fix the issue of our DoTs dropping off without an efficient way to reapply them. Alternately they could make it so we aren't extremely reliant on our DoTs being applied.
2) Egi abilities should be able to be used out of combat. Whats the point of a titan shield if I can't shield myself prepull. No will ever switch to titan just to apply the shield and lose all the potency from ifrit.
3) tie aetherflow to our trances so it actually feels like it has a purpose other than just being another set of ogcds to spam.
4) Increase a few of our potencies by a little bit, it's incredibly feels bad to be playing a class with as complex a rotation as current SMNs and to be so low on dps.
5) Don't make us lose 1/2 our skills while we have a demi summon. or at least allow demi summons to cast devotion.

I've started to enjoy the chaotic nature of the current SMN rotation. I like that there are higher skill cap jobs, but what's the point of an incredibly high skill cap if no matter how well you play it you just aren't performing nearly as well as much easier jobs (I haven't played every class, but from what I can see SMN currently has the most complex rotation in the game)

[Sequora]

I've been playing SMN lately to practice it for prog on savages. There are a number of glaring issues with the class that I think if addressed could make the class much more enjoyable to play.
1) either lower the cd of tri by 10-15s or the trances by the same amount. This would fix the issue of our DoTs dropping off without an efficient way to reapply them. Alternately they could make it so we aren't extremely reliant on our DoTs being applied.
2) Egi abilities should be able to be used out of combat. Whats the point of a titan shield if I can't shield myself prepull. No will ever switch to titan just to apply the shield and lose all the potency from ifrit.
3) tie aetherflow to our trances so it actually feels like it has a purpose other than just being another set of ogcds to spam.
4) Increase a few of our potencies by a little bit, it's incredibly feels bad to be playing a class with as complex a rotation as current SMNs and to be so low on dps.
5) Don't make us lose 1/2 our skills while we have a demi summon. or at least allow demi summons to cast devotion.

I've started to enjoy the chaotic nature of the current SMN rotation. I like that there are higher skill cap jobs, but what's the point of an incredibly high skill cap if no matter how well you play it you just aren't performing nearly as well as much easier jobs (I haven't played every class, but from what I can see SMN currently has the most complex rotation in the game)

This is how I feel about it. I actually enjoy playing the job over RDM, but it feels like having a slightly higher skill cap should come at a cost of slightly higher DPS. Egi assault seems to be the biggest offenders which is almost a little ironic because that seemed to be the big focus of the summoner changes for ShB.

[Dahlinea]

beside the fact that SE doesn't want smn rotation to get larger than it already is thus making the possibility of bahamut and dwt unifying much more likely. the reason you get this large window is cause firebird trance gives the instant cast on fountain of fire if you removed them it would feel just as bad as bahamut does currently . Also the trance can never be like aetherflow one is a 15 seconds buff with a finisher which even if you don't use the finisher it will end the other is 3 charges that can be used whenever you want in a 60 seconds window allowing you to adjust how fast you want the rotation to get the maximum dps benefit . the only way for the trance to become the same as an aetherflow is by making the duration the same as the cooldown and even then using the finisher would feel bad since you would lose the buff it provides. Aetherflow already exists for having aetherflow i dont know why do we have to remove it aetherflow did it's job really good

Separating Phoenix from FTB wouldn't extend the rotation at all. We still have to wait for 60 secs Trances CDs either way. In fact, removing Phoenix from FTB, and having a Summon Bahamut becoming Summon Phoenix in its phase, would actually make the rotation more systematic with downtimes (which would be more tight now) to jus reapply dots if necessary and throw some Ruin III's. Correcting the cooldowns of some oGCDs, SMN rotation would have as base something like "Trance phases to amass Ruin IV stacks and Aetherflow stacks then burning them during the Summoning phases".

[Taranok]

Separating Phoenix from FTB wouldn't extend the rotation at all. We still have to wait for 60 secs Trances CDs either way. In fact, removing Phoenix from FTB, and having a Summon Bahamut becoming Summon Phoenix in its phase, would actually make the rotation more systematical with downtimes (which would be more tight now) to jus reapply dots if necessary and throw some Ruin III's. Correcting the cooldowns of some oGCDs, SMN rotation would have as base something like "Trance phases to amass Ruin IV stacks and Aetherflow stacks then burning them during the Summoning phases".

The issue is that separating DP from FBT would actually break the rotation more, because the demi-summons feel like absolute garbage when you're not spamming constant instant casts, and it makes the rotation harder to actually execute.

Going the opposite direction, merging DB with DWT, fixes a lot of problems on DB, but reintroduces problems with EA 1 and 2, because those abilities and devotion cannot be used during any demi summon. These are problems that already exist, it would just make the problem so bad that the devs would be forced to actually fix the issue as well.

I've started to enjoy the chaotic nature of the current SMN rotation. I like that there are higher skill cap jobs, but what's the point of an incredibly high skill cap if no matter how well you play it you just aren't performing nearly as well as much easier jobs (I haven't played every class, but from what I can see SMN currently has the most complex rotation in the game)

I enjoy its chaotic nature, a little, but it's not chaotic in a good way. Bard more exemplifies chaotic in a good way than Summoner does, because it has the proc rotation down to a T compared to Summoner, which is less chaos (and obviously no procs) and more john madden. So instead of chaos, it's pure bar watching trying to understand the flow of a class that fundamentally does not flow, at all. Even Bard has a flow to it, even if it's a bit choppy.

As sad as it is to say this, outside of Contagion specifically, and to a lesser extent precasting aetherflow before pulls, Summoner had a solid flow to it in Stormblood. Contagion was bad because controlling the pet was bad to begin with, and prepull setup always sucks, but otherwise the class was pretty great.

[Karshan]

Removing Phoenix is the better choice. Adding Bahamut to DWT might seem like an improvement but it doesn't address the rotation's main problem which is its rigidity with the main damage phases.

Removing Phoenix from FBT sounds crazy and I'm sure that most people would be up in arms but it falls more in line with what would help the job feel better and that is creating another window of free movement and weaving capability. If Summoner is going to be forced to weave as many oGCDs as they have, having the FBT as another opportunity to freely weave everything they have (like the job plays from 72-79), is going to make movement less punishing and improve the general flow. Additionally, and most importantly, what this does is it realigns the Demi-summons into the "downtime" windows while making the only requirements to access them the completion of a trance phase, which, if FBT would take on its own Deathflare like DWT, can be manipulated to end whenever you want to allow the use of your Demi-summon whenever you want. When you look at it this way, the trances would essentially become what Aetherflow has been since Heavensward, just that now they don't need you to spend AF actions to unlock them.

I'm sure anyone can see that there's plenty of new issues that would come out of this, such as: the added damage of Fountain of Fire/Brand of Purgatory still leaving an imbalance between DWT/FBT, the added weaves of needing to press a Summon Phoenix button and two Revelations outside of a trance, Phoenix taking on the general clunkiness of having to hard cast through its phase just like Bahamut, and others most likely. However, for the purpose of answering your question and solving the biggest fundamental problem with this job as it exists now, separating Phoenix from FBT unlocks the handcuffs that have tied Summoner's wrists to their ankles. The rest can be smoothed out with some polish.

Huh, what ? Yes it does sound crazy to me. I hear your arguments, but FBT is the only time SMN doesn't feel clunky, it actually feels good flow wise, and you want to end it. The only thing it gates are pet abilities, which have a charge (the other shouldn't be up during phoenix or you're doing it wrong) so the problem is not one, It's 20 seconds (and not 15) of mobility, and most of all it avoids you the mess that Bahamut is for 8 wws.

Honestly it is to the point where I'm actually extatic when I see that button light up.

[Dahlinea]

The issue is that separating DP from FBT would actually break the rotation more, because the demi-summons feel like absolute garbage when you're not spamming constant instant casts, and it makes the rotation harder to actually execute.

Going the opposite direction, merging DB with DWT, fixes a lot of problems on DB, but reintroduces problems with EA 1 and 2, because those abilities and devotion cannot be used during any demi summon. These are problems that already exist, it would just make the problem so bad that the devs would be forced to actually fix the issue as well.

If only they could eliminate those Egi Assaults for good, have Devotion be not pet-based, and allow free casts of Ruin IV during Bahamut phase. Then we would have only one button for Summon Bahamut/Phoenix and other for Ahk Morn/Revelation with their current abilities for the duration intact. But then again, the pets would only serve as our third dot or auto attack.

[dinnertime]

If only they could eliminate those Egi Assaults for good, have Devotion be not pet-based, and allow free casts of Ruin IV during Bahamut phase. Then we would have only one button for Summon Bahamut/Phoenix and other for Ahk Morn/Revelation with their current abilities for the duration intact. But then again, the pets would only serve as our third dot or auto attack.

What's funny is they did exactly this for PvP SMN. It baffles me that they didn't think to do it on the PvE version.

[Dyvid]

Removing Phoenix is the better choice. Adding Bahamut to DWT might seem like an improvement but it doesn't address the rotation's main problem which is its rigidity with the main damage phases.

Removing Phoenix from FBT sounds crazy and I'm sure that most people would be up in arms but it falls more in line with what would help the job feel better and that is creating another window of free movement and weaving capability. If Summoner is going to be forced to weave as many oGCDs as they have, having the FBT as another opportunity to freely weave everything they have (like the job plays from 72-79), is going to make movement less punishing and improve the general flow. Additionally, and most importantly, what this does is it realigns the Demi-summons into the "downtime" windows while making the only requirements to access them the completion of a trance phase, which, if FBT would take on its own Deathflare like DWT, can be manipulated to end whenever you want to allow the use of your Demi-summon whenever you want. When you look at it this way, the trances would essentially become what Aetherflow has been since Heavensward, just that now they don't need you to spend AF actions to unlock them.

I'm sure anyone can see that there's plenty of new issues that would come out of this, such as: the added damage of Fountain of Fire/Brand of Purgatory still leaving an imbalance between DWT/FBT, the added weaves of needing to press a Summon Phoenix button and two Revelations outside of a trance, Phoenix taking on the general clunkiness of having to hard cast through its phase just like Bahamut, and others most likely. However, for the purpose of answering your question and solving the biggest fundamental problem with this job as it exists now, separating Phoenix from FBT unlocks the handcuffs that have tied Summoner's wrists to their ankles. The rest can be smoothed out with some polish.

This isn't the first time I heard this and understand the why. Just like AF in 3.0 and 4.0, DWT needs to be constantly rolling with minimum stops. Once it's up and need to be used again and more importantly when the boss transitions (Eden Prime Move) that ability needs to rolling.