Don't nerf DRG - BUFF NIN

[ForteNightshade]

Monks buff is physical dps only. This is what I’m talking about.

If u took my examples you would read exactly what I mean, and lit buffs everyone, and all dps benefit from it unlike brotherhood.

Ur buffing a warrior but a BLM healers and all dps aswell. Where brotherhood buffs the two tanks and potientally 1 dps. Comparatively.

It’s a raid wide buff Ofcourse the warrior gets it too. But everyone else also gets it.

Don’t act like dragoons buff is as limited as monks. It litterally only buffs physical dps.

I'm aware of that. And I have raid your post. It's simply inaccurate. You are welcome to look at the rDPS now clearly visible on that magical abacus of a website. Dragoon and Monk contribute approximately the same rDPS. Both players in the respective parses showing this are of comparable skill. So why are we nerfing or buffing either of them? This may become an issue down the line if Crit scaling gets out of control but you don't nerf ahead of that.

[Drayos]

I'm aware of that. And I have raid your post. It's simply inaccurate. You are welcome to look at the rDPS now clearly visible on that magical abacus of a website. Dragoon and Monk contribute approximately the same rDPS. Both players in the respective parses showing this are of comparable skill. So why are we nerfing or buffing either of them? This may become an issue down the line if Crit scaling gets out of control but you don't nerf ahead of that.

Bard and Dragoon do identical RDPS yet Remain thousands of DPS Difference.

RDM offers Less then Both of these, and less mobility then a Bard Yet remains Thousands of DPS Difference.

The point of the matter Remains, Why are some Encumbered With the "you offer utility so remain Low DPS" while Jobs such as Dragoon offer the same Overall RDPS bolster sitting way above. i get on your argument u could say "bards unlimited mobility ranged while Dragoon is a Melee" but RDM while offering Insta rezz, due to new Mana Limitations cant cast more then 2 before becoming a Dead Weight ontop of this, Bard offers Defensive Utility also.

RDMs taken Nerfed utility HEAVILY, yet remains No higher in DPS then it was. and remmeber, Embolden is another physical only buff, Its kinda been rendered Useless Utility wise at this point, given the circumstances of its Instant rezz being effective was based on Prog, which now if the RDM Dies, goodluck getting a instant rezz from it, because its so mana starved

Bard took heavy nerfs to the utility (likely less so, because RDMs Severe mana issues) Yet hasnt really moved to where it was in SB.

Ninja, i'd argue has been passively nerfed Utility wise, as Emnity has Lost Use among DPS Control, and 60sec burst windows have become less and less Impactful.

Summoner although had its utility buffed to a Extent, prolly is around Drg and Monk level yet remains quite far behind them, and their recent changes has made them much more Movement punishing.

also remembering, Monks have always been Lower DPS then a Pure DPS, so techniqually Should ALSO be behind MCH as far as that standpoint goes.

how many jobs do u really believe need buffing?...

Im not alone in believing MCH Needs a DPS Buff, SAM and BLM need their gap shortened by abit more and MCH put Abit behind SAM as its obviously got ALOT more uptime then SAM Does, and even if DRG and Monk Remain Where they are, Their Utility is the same level as RDM, Summoner and Bard, which do remain thousands behind them... Padded DRGs are pulling over 15k DPS, while padded Bards/RDMs/Summoners are on like almost 12k lol. 3k DPS less then a Job which is actually higher Utility then themselves.

and yeah Bards have ALOT more mobility, but Summoner defintly has ALOT less and RDM Still has Uptime issues if it cant get its FIrst cast out Every 2GCDs. Swiftcast only gives them a Insta cast per 60 seconds, which over a Entire Fight isnt a Massive amount comparitvely to how much they will need to get that hard cast off.

[HyoMinPark]

Bard and Dragoon do identical RDPS yet Remain thousands of DPS Difference.

At 75th percentile for Innocence EX:
DRG — 10,100
BRD — 9,800

That’s 300 DPS difference.

At 95th percentile for Innocence EX:
DRG — 11,200
BRD — 10,700

That’s 500 DPS difference. And these are personal damage numbers, not rDPS. So, where are you getting this “thousands of DPS difference” from? I don’t think BRD versus DRG’s personal or rDPS have “thousands of DPS difference”; I think they’re actually fairly close to one another, and personal damage discrepancies are because of the nature of one job being melee and the other ranged.

That said, BRD and DRG never compete with one another for raid spots—DRG is a melee DPS and BRD is a physical ranged DPS. The only jobs DRG directly competes with are MNK, SAM, and NIN. With BRD, it’s MCH and DNC. So why are you comparing two jobs that don’t compete with one another (and with inaccurate numbers no less)?

RDM offers Less then Both of these, and less mobility then a Bard Yet remains Thousands of DPS Difference.

And RDMs have valid complaints and need a buff. However, they don’t compete with DRGs or BRDs. They compete with the other casters, and right now BLM dominates both SMN and RDM. SMN and RDM could use adjustments, but you can’t compare RDM to BRD anymore because they no longer compete as they used to for a raid slot.

With the party bonuses from bringing 1 tank, 1 healer, 1 melee DPS, 1 physical ranged DPS, and 1 magical DPS; it’s going to be rare that you see double physical ranged or even double caster comps (only 4 of the top 50 speedkills run double caster, and they only bring one melee DPS). So keep the role competitions within the applicable roles. This isn’t Stormblood where MCH, SMN, RDM, and BLM all competed with the fourth spot (because NIN/DRG/BRD were near hard locks).

The point of the matter Remains, Why are some Encumbered With the "you offer utility so remain Low DPS" while Jobs such as Dragoon offer the same Overall RDPS bolster sitting way above. i get on your argument u could say "bards unlimited mobility ranged while Dragoon is a Melee" but RDM while offering Insta rezz, due to new Mana Limitations cant cast more then 2 before becoming a Dead Weight ontop of this, Bard offers Defensive Utility also.

DRG does higher damage now compared to Stormblood because they lost utility in the transition to Shadowbringers. With the physical ranged no longer being reliant on piercing, DRGs lost roughly ~400 rDPS per physical ranged. So, they gained it in potency buffs for personal damage—if this had not happened, DRG would have been in serious trouble. In addition to this, Litany was also nerfed from 15% to 10%.

The difference between BRD’s damage and DRG’s damage lies in the fact that BRD is a ranged DPS with 100% uptime. DRG, however, loses damage if it has to disengage from the boss at any point.

With regards to RDM, I’ve known a lot of RDMs that insist Verraise stops being a utility outside of progression, which is fairly true—when you have content on farm, deaths should be minimal and raises shouldn’t be necessary. RDM could honestly stand to have some potency buffs since the developers don’t seem to want Embolden to affect all types of damage.

In terms of defensive utilities, MNK also has that in the form of Mantra, which is actually better than BRD’s Minne because it’s AOE and it does the same thing Minne does (+20% on all healing for 15s every 90s). The only thing BRD has that MNK doesn’t is Troubadour—but all physical ranged have an equivalent to that (DNC has Shield Samba and MCH has Tactician).

RDMs taken Nerfed utility HEAVILY, yet remains No higher in DPS then it was.

Again, RDMs have a valid complaint right now in terms of their damage, and they should be looked at.

Bard took heavy nerfs to the utility (likely less so, because RDMs Severe mana issues) Yet hasnt really moved to where it was in SB.

BRD’s losses in rDPS was made up for by potency buffs. In terms of its damage, I think it’s in a very decent spot now despite its losses in utility. We will have to see how it fairs in the rDPS department, if Direct Hit starts to fall behind Crit as the tiers progress, which is what it did in Stormblood. I think BRD is actually parsing higher now compared to late Stormblood, where it was the most strong—it currently beats RDM, NIN, and DNC (though DNC can at least make up for its low personal damage with rDPS).

Ninja, i'd argue has been passively nerfed Utility wise, as Emnity has Lost Use among DPS Control, and 60sec burst windows have become less and less Impactful.

NIN has far larger issues than just the loss of Shadewalker/Smokescreen. Its potencies are extremely low and it also has clipping issues now with Raiton (since Fuma is now so suboptimal), which doesn’t help; and though it’s still brought for TA, it’s less valuable than its ever been since its inception in Patch 2.4. It needs help, and I don’t think anyone is contesting that. At least, I haven’t seen much contesting about it—I think a lot of people agree that NIN is in a bad spot right now.

Summoner although had its utility buffed to a Extent, prolly is around Drg and Monk level yet remains quite far behind them, and their recent changes has made them much more Movement punishing.

While SMN has a regen now from Phoenix, Devotion was upped to 180s and cannot be used during Phoenix windows, which causes it to always fall outside of buff windows because of the way Phoenix windows work. This means that it will never line up with things like Trick, Battle Litany, and/or Battle Voice, which is clunky design. From what I understand, it also has some rotational issues where it feels particularly clunky (I feel like I’ve read negative things about the Egi Assaults quite a bit, but I’m not a caster main really so they were just comments I gave cursory glances towards).

also remembering, Monks have always been Lower DPS then a Pure DPS, so techniqually Should ALSO be behind MCH as far as that standpoint goes.

Personally, I don’t think a physical ranged DPS should do more than a melee DPS simply because physical ranged will always have 100% uptime on a boss, where as melee can easily lose uptime unless a party creates strats specifically to cater to uptime (see things like O12S Uptime strat). In the case of MNK, it’s also additionally punished for missed positionals, where as MCH doesn’t have to worry about that (just clipping issues during Wildfire+Hypercharge windows if you have higher ping).


To be honest, I’m having a hard time following your post, because it seems all over the place. I thought that this conversation was primarily about DRG versus MNK, but maybe it’s just late and I’m failing to see how all these comments are connected to the initial point of contestment.

[ForteNightshade]

snip

... How did an debate over Monk and Dragoon devolve into bringing up literally every job? Your argument is all over the place, my dude. I'll try to parse through some relevant points...

First and foremost, you cannot directly compare melee, range and casters because they all compete for a unique spot. If you do elect to bring double range or caster, a melee will always be dropped. That said, the developers seem to intend for a 2M/1R/1C comp. And have balanced accordingly.

Now you mention several jobs needing buffs. Please indicate where I have suggested otherwise. You've twisted this into an entirely different argument and insinuated my stance whilst doing so. Either stick to the point or at least concede the initial debate before moving on. Regardless, I actually agree Samurai and Red Mage need some love. Ninja and Summoner have issues far beyond their lackluster DPS last I heard.

As for the numbers you mention. Where exactly did you pull out that 15k figure because I just checked current rankings and the highest a Dragoon has parsed was in the mid 13k range. In fact, the highest ranked Bard and Red Mage pull 13,600~ while Summoner is at 13,900. So again... where are you getting these numbers because this comes from Innocence EX.

I really think you ought to quit while you're... well, not ahead. But still...

[Tobalito]

... How did an debate over Monk and Dragoon devolve into bringing up literally every job? Your argument is all over the place, my dude. I'll try to parse through some relevant points...

I really think you ought to quit while you're... well, not ahead. But still...

Honestly I just didnt bother arguing. FFlogs, with research will show him where balance is. Some jobs need it, others dont. I'm still unsure if he is taking the fact that Brotherhokd is literally half the CD of Litany or if he is just spouting popular ideas like "Litany is good tier over Brotherhood!" (Paraphrasing of course)

I'm just so tired of people wanting to push Dragoon back down to SB dps and act like oh woe is me MNK Is basically a Samurai and should be really high dps like Brotherhood 90 second CD doesnt exist.

Also the arguments of BRD and DRG have the same rDPS therefore one needs a buff.... dude, reps being around the same IS balance lol.

And funny thing is, I think MCH can use a buff, I dont think they need to be above MNK or DRG, bring them closer, like SAM to BLM (in theory) it's such a small buff though that it may not satiate MCH who want a buff.

Also I never said this game is not balanced around pure dps - utility - support. I said that is not the only thing, before the game turned into that there was a job balance factor that existed since day 1. That factor is uptime, in which Yoshi has said many times ranged physical so a bit less dmg but they have 100% uptime and no positional to boot, free movement from attacking.

[Renkei]

MCH is already above DRG in personal damage, and has a lower damage ceiling so dragoons only out damage them at 95 percentile and with RBDPS. ;[ I think the hierarchy is fine. just poor ninja, and sorta Sam and poor warrior (will put in tanks later in table) lol

[Drayos]

snip

hmm first few weeks DRG was actually much further apart, maybe the gaps closed Slightly more now then it was larger cause i remember Looking at it when i was levelling DRG and saw the DRG numbers popping off to begin with. im guessing its been lost to the 2 weekly resets the numbers now look more realistic in difference.

my arguments more about the difference between PDPS within each role.

comparing a BLM to a RDM/Summoner =

BLM - 11,677 - 14,744 0RDPS
RDM - 9,975 - 12,667 375 RDPS
Summoner 10,430 - 12,997 - For some reason this isnt actually measured?.. but i'd assume by buffs Its prolly 400ish.

Comparing Bard and dancer to Machinist

MCH 10,942 - 13,140 0 RDPS
bard 10,392 - 12,640 400 RDPS
Dancer 8,920 - 10.609 DPS 1600 RDPS

Comparing Monk Dragoon SAM ninja

SAM 11,120 - 13,820 0 RDPS
Dragoon 10,850 - 13,760 575 RDPS
Monk 11,105 - 13,625 400 RDPS
Ninja 9,105 - 11,392 925 RDPS

without cross comparison.

the Difference between Melee DPS is MUCH smaller, then Any other Roles, these are Quite big Differences between Roles in actual DPS between the 0RDPS and maximum PDPS. while The role still holds some of the highest RDPS Value Jobs in the game currently.

the Differences Were orginally justified by a RDPS Value, which says U cant Equal a PDPSER as a RDPSer due to u'd effectively outclass them in your respective roles, but it seems bent out of shape currently because the Weight of RDPS doesnt seem to be Equal Across these Jobs, but rather very different with Melee being the Worst offender, although it does sit at a 2 Melee Comp team, i dont feel like just accepting that is fine, and balancing could improve that situation to see More flexibility in the Additional Choice. closing the gap of Difference More would certainly increase the flexibility.

almost all these Jobs now excluding BLM,SAM,MCH and Ninja,Dancer All lay around 400-500 RDPS, so effectively their DPS Differences between their 0RDPS Brothers should be the same (As in BLM RDM and Summoners Difference in DPS Shouldnt be Wider then SAM Dragoon and Monks DPS) as the Weight of RDPS Should overall be the same when making these comparisons.

the only difference in opinon here is If they should achieve what has been agreed on Should be Done via Nerfing or buffing, which both have problems, u could Overnerf which would Result in a Worse result, Or could overbuff something which again would be a worse Result. neither are perfect, and i can understand why some would want Buffs to treat these problems instead of Nerfs, a Power creep is a Factor though, but maybe it wouldnt affect this game in the same way i've seen in prior games.

P.S

im aware my Orginal Arguments can seem very Wishwashy, Due to Personal reasons which dont really need discussing, My Translation onto Paper/Forums at times do go off the Wall alittle in reguards to my orginal Point, Sadly sometimes In the Moment of Replying to someone i Dont always initially pick up on That til someone points it out haha. so i apologise that my Prior points may not of been as Joined As they should have been. rereading what i had initally replied, does make my argument seem very much cross comparative which wasnt my orginal intention. my intention was More the PDPS Gaps between Each Roles Choices, Comparitively to the RDPS Offered by the lower PDPS Choices.

i mean imho, I feel some of the jobs should just go back to their SB Concepts, while i think the removal of the "increased Type of Damage" buffs was a good thing, i feel Would it of been better to give Utility back to them in a Different way as a Trade off would have been a Stronger approach, this expansion has tried to make this 400 RDPS, DPS choice thing pretty Strong, with Bards being Gutted, Dragoons Being Gutted in trade for Dancer.. but i dont really know why it had to happen.

if this was the push why didnt they just give all Jobs a 400 RDPS Value and Balance them Respectfully to what they are. While RDM could have been a 0 RDPS with the Instant Rezz Value making up their Raid Position. then balance them around Melee v Ranged v Caster etc etc

[Burningskull]

If you guy's do it, then MCH will out damage dragoon, and dragoon is already close to MCH, having ranged classes without positional have a higher damage potential without the risk of position's risk to reward is really messed up.

If anything Please Buff Ninja, There's no reason it should be barely doing anymore damage then dancer, Please Buff it's Position damage to increase it's skill ceiling there's no reason that it should deal barely anymore damage and having nearly double dancer's APM. Dancer is already practically Meta,

Meta Data To Follow on Skill Ceiling / APM to prove it.

Legend/Key : APM = Actions Per Minute , RBDPS = Raid Buff Damage Per Second, divide by 8 and you get the potency for self buff. , DPS = Damage Per Second.

SKILL CEILING.
RANKED IN ORDER OF TOP TO BOTTOM IN DPS.
BLM : 3,752.45 | APM : 28.9 | RBDPS = 0
SAM : 3,577.34| APM : 34.1 | RBDPS = 0
MNK : 3,158.92 | APM : 38.8 | RBDPS = 400
MCH : 2,693.52| APM : 41.7 | RBDPS = 0
DRG : 3,511.55| APM : 36.9 | RBDPS = 575
BRD : 2,784.27| APM : 41.1 | RBDPS = 400
SMN : 3,192.37| APM : 38.7 | RBDPS = 0
RDM : 3,327.35| APM : 34.1 | RBDPS = 300
NIN : 2,649.42| APM : 45.5 | RBDPS = 925
DNC : 2,308.77| APM : 34.8 | RBDPS =1600

Note this shows only Top VS Bottom Averages from all parse data for 5.0, But it does give insight to how much extra damage the class does, Jobs with the lowest damage ceiling have the lowest Variable damage potential , APM is a bigger indicator of actual skill required, but please note that up time makes a difference in APM and SKS/SPS.

Ninja = Buff
Monk = Buff
Samurai = Buff
Summoner = Buff

While you at it please change warriors 20 Gauge gap closer that's 100 potency to 200.

>_________>


It's not fair for a melee class to have lower skill ceiling then a ranged class while having to adhere to positions with melee your damage ceiling is heavily effected by the tank's Position while with rangers that have no cast time the position of the tank only marginally effects damage output.

I DO NOT think anything should be nerfed this is statically proof of skill and damage ceilings i am saying that some classes should have their damage ceiling increased.

Better idea... just remove positionals on all jobs.

[CapricaLangley]

Usually i just lurk the forums and i don't have a real point of view on the problem, but seriously? Do you really think that MCH, not having raid dps, should have higher numbers than melee jobs? Being mobile is the biggest advantage you can have in this game's encounter design. Melee DPS even have single colldowns designed around being more mobile (true north) and the only reason why BLM is top DPS overall is purely because of triplecast. Machinist should have higher DPS than its ranged counterparts, but should still be lower than any job affected by mechanics, i thought this was common sense. If you think i'm wrong, please explain your point of view because i don't get it.

[Dead-Song]

I think BLM should be top dps, closely followed by SAM (gives us a damage buff damn it!), then MNK (they have more positionals than MCH and are melee so they have less uptime), MCH (they have little utility, but they have it....people are barely playing BRD so they will get choosen for range dps. lets also not forget that for ranged keeping uptime its way easier and they have no positionals) DRG (have decent damage, good utility) and a little below that NIN (because their trick attack its way to good)