Don't nerf DRG - BUFF NIN

[Drayos]

No, you don't understand but are very stubborn. When I browsed through logs I purposely took comparable percentiles. Their overall rDPS contribution is near identical on average. It can fluctuate based on RNG (Litany is a percent buff) or comp but they two are essentially a wash. You're also being quite disingenuous—pointing to a comp which doesn't factor Monk yet ignoring the same can occur for Dragoon. Litany is worthless Warrior, for example.

Do not assume people's arguments are disingenuous because they refute yours. Do you raid; theorycraft? If the answer to either is no, then what evidence do you have to put forth against people who actually have gone through the math and/or played both jobs at an extensive level? I'm sorry but dungeons don't mean much...

Monks buff is physical dps only. This is what I’m talking about.

If u took my examples you would read exactly what I mean, and lit buffs everyone, and all dps benefit from it unlike brotherhood.

Ur buffing a warrior but a BLM healers and all dps aswell. Where brotherhood buffs the two tanks and potientally 1 dps. Comparatively.

It’s a raid wide buff Ofcourse the warrior gets it too. But everyone else also gets it.

Don’t act like dragoons buff is as limited as monks. It litterally only buffs physical dps.

[Renkei]

It's still pretty good, but yeah dragoon's buff isn't as limited besides the chunkiness of dragon-sight, in an all physical comp is a very powerful buff. to bad there's no physical damage healers >____>

[ForteNightshade]

Monks buff is physical dps only. This is what I’m talking about.

If u took my examples you would read exactly what I mean, and lit buffs everyone, and all dps benefit from it unlike brotherhood.

Ur buffing a warrior but a BLM healers and all dps aswell. Where brotherhood buffs the two tanks and potientally 1 dps. Comparatively.

It’s a raid wide buff Ofcourse the warrior gets it too. But everyone else also gets it.

Don’t act like dragoons buff is as limited as monks. It litterally only buffs physical dps.

I'm aware of that. And I have raid your post. It's simply inaccurate. You are welcome to look at the rDPS now clearly visible on that magical abacus of a website. Dragoon and Monk contribute approximately the same rDPS. Both players in the respective parses showing this are of comparable skill. So why are we nerfing or buffing either of them? This may become an issue down the line if Crit scaling gets out of control but you don't nerf ahead of that.

[Drayos]

I'm aware of that. And I have raid your post. It's simply inaccurate. You are welcome to look at the rDPS now clearly visible on that magical abacus of a website. Dragoon and Monk contribute approximately the same rDPS. Both players in the respective parses showing this are of comparable skill. So why are we nerfing or buffing either of them? This may become an issue down the line if Crit scaling gets out of control but you don't nerf ahead of that.

Bard and Dragoon do identical RDPS yet Remain thousands of DPS Difference.

RDM offers Less then Both of these, and less mobility then a Bard Yet remains Thousands of DPS Difference.

The point of the matter Remains, Why are some Encumbered With the "you offer utility so remain Low DPS" while Jobs such as Dragoon offer the same Overall RDPS bolster sitting way above. i get on your argument u could say "bards unlimited mobility ranged while Dragoon is a Melee" but RDM while offering Insta rezz, due to new Mana Limitations cant cast more then 2 before becoming a Dead Weight ontop of this, Bard offers Defensive Utility also.

RDMs taken Nerfed utility HEAVILY, yet remains No higher in DPS then it was. and remmeber, Embolden is another physical only buff, Its kinda been rendered Useless Utility wise at this point, given the circumstances of its Instant rezz being effective was based on Prog, which now if the RDM Dies, goodluck getting a instant rezz from it, because its so mana starved

Bard took heavy nerfs to the utility (likely less so, because RDMs Severe mana issues) Yet hasnt really moved to where it was in SB.

Ninja, i'd argue has been passively nerfed Utility wise, as Emnity has Lost Use among DPS Control, and 60sec burst windows have become less and less Impactful.

Summoner although had its utility buffed to a Extent, prolly is around Drg and Monk level yet remains quite far behind them, and their recent changes has made them much more Movement punishing.

also remembering, Monks have always been Lower DPS then a Pure DPS, so techniqually Should ALSO be behind MCH as far as that standpoint goes.

how many jobs do u really believe need buffing?...

Im not alone in believing MCH Needs a DPS Buff, SAM and BLM need their gap shortened by abit more and MCH put Abit behind SAM as its obviously got ALOT more uptime then SAM Does, and even if DRG and Monk Remain Where they are, Their Utility is the same level as RDM, Summoner and Bard, which do remain thousands behind them... Padded DRGs are pulling over 15k DPS, while padded Bards/RDMs/Summoners are on like almost 12k lol. 3k DPS less then a Job which is actually higher Utility then themselves.

and yeah Bards have ALOT more mobility, but Summoner defintly has ALOT less and RDM Still has Uptime issues if it cant get its FIrst cast out Every 2GCDs. Swiftcast only gives them a Insta cast per 60 seconds, which over a Entire Fight isnt a Massive amount comparitvely to how much they will need to get that hard cast off.

[HyoMinPark]

Bard and Dragoon do identical RDPS yet Remain thousands of DPS Difference.

At 75th percentile for Innocence EX:
DRG — 10,100
BRD — 9,800

That’s 300 DPS difference.

At 95th percentile for Innocence EX:
DRG — 11,200
BRD — 10,700

That’s 500 DPS difference. And these are personal damage numbers, not rDPS. So, where are you getting this “thousands of DPS difference” from? I don’t think BRD versus DRG’s personal or rDPS have “thousands of DPS difference”; I think they’re actually fairly close to one another, and personal damage discrepancies are because of the nature of one job being melee and the other ranged.

That said, BRD and DRG never compete with one another for raid spots—DRG is a melee DPS and BRD is a physical ranged DPS. The only jobs DRG directly competes with are MNK, SAM, and NIN. With BRD, it’s MCH and DNC. So why are you comparing two jobs that don’t compete with one another (and with inaccurate numbers no less)?

RDM offers Less then Both of these, and less mobility then a Bard Yet remains Thousands of DPS Difference.

And RDMs have valid complaints and need a buff. However, they don’t compete with DRGs or BRDs. They compete with the other casters, and right now BLM dominates both SMN and RDM. SMN and RDM could use adjustments, but you can’t compare RDM to BRD anymore because they no longer compete as they used to for a raid slot.

With the party bonuses from bringing 1 tank, 1 healer, 1 melee DPS, 1 physical ranged DPS, and 1 magical DPS; it’s going to be rare that you see double physical ranged or even double caster comps (only 4 of the top 50 speedkills run double caster, and they only bring one melee DPS). So keep the role competitions within the applicable roles. This isn’t Stormblood where MCH, SMN, RDM, and BLM all competed with the fourth spot (because NIN/DRG/BRD were near hard locks).

The point of the matter Remains, Why are some Encumbered With the "you offer utility so remain Low DPS" while Jobs such as Dragoon offer the same Overall RDPS bolster sitting way above. i get on your argument u could say "bards unlimited mobility ranged while Dragoon is a Melee" but RDM while offering Insta rezz, due to new Mana Limitations cant cast more then 2 before becoming a Dead Weight ontop of this, Bard offers Defensive Utility also.

DRG does higher damage now compared to Stormblood because they lost utility in the transition to Shadowbringers. With the physical ranged no longer being reliant on piercing, DRGs lost roughly ~400 rDPS per physical ranged. So, they gained it in potency buffs for personal damage—if this had not happened, DRG would have been in serious trouble. In addition to this, Litany was also nerfed from 15% to 10%.

The difference between BRD’s damage and DRG’s damage lies in the fact that BRD is a ranged DPS with 100% uptime. DRG, however, loses damage if it has to disengage from the boss at any point.

With regards to RDM, I’ve known a lot of RDMs that insist Verraise stops being a utility outside of progression, which is fairly true—when you have content on farm, deaths should be minimal and raises shouldn’t be necessary. RDM could honestly stand to have some potency buffs since the developers don’t seem to want Embolden to affect all types of damage.

In terms of defensive utilities, MNK also has that in the form of Mantra, which is actually better than BRD’s Minne because it’s AOE and it does the same thing Minne does (+20% on all healing for 15s every 90s). The only thing BRD has that MNK doesn’t is Troubadour—but all physical ranged have an equivalent to that (DNC has Shield Samba and MCH has Tactician).

RDMs taken Nerfed utility HEAVILY, yet remains No higher in DPS then it was.

Again, RDMs have a valid complaint right now in terms of their damage, and they should be looked at.

Bard took heavy nerfs to the utility (likely less so, because RDMs Severe mana issues) Yet hasnt really moved to where it was in SB.

BRD’s losses in rDPS was made up for by potency buffs. In terms of its damage, I think it’s in a very decent spot now despite its losses in utility. We will have to see how it fairs in the rDPS department, if Direct Hit starts to fall behind Crit as the tiers progress, which is what it did in Stormblood. I think BRD is actually parsing higher now compared to late Stormblood, where it was the most strong—it currently beats RDM, NIN, and DNC (though DNC can at least make up for its low personal damage with rDPS).

Ninja, i'd argue has been passively nerfed Utility wise, as Emnity has Lost Use among DPS Control, and 60sec burst windows have become less and less Impactful.

NIN has far larger issues than just the loss of Shadewalker/Smokescreen. Its potencies are extremely low and it also has clipping issues now with Raiton (since Fuma is now so suboptimal), which doesn’t help; and though it’s still brought for TA, it’s less valuable than its ever been since its inception in Patch 2.4. It needs help, and I don’t think anyone is contesting that. At least, I haven’t seen much contesting about it—I think a lot of people agree that NIN is in a bad spot right now.

Summoner although had its utility buffed to a Extent, prolly is around Drg and Monk level yet remains quite far behind them, and their recent changes has made them much more Movement punishing.

While SMN has a regen now from Phoenix, Devotion was upped to 180s and cannot be used during Phoenix windows, which causes it to always fall outside of buff windows because of the way Phoenix windows work. This means that it will never line up with things like Trick, Battle Litany, and/or Battle Voice, which is clunky design. From what I understand, it also has some rotational issues where it feels particularly clunky (I feel like I’ve read negative things about the Egi Assaults quite a bit, but I’m not a caster main really so they were just comments I gave cursory glances towards).

also remembering, Monks have always been Lower DPS then a Pure DPS, so techniqually Should ALSO be behind MCH as far as that standpoint goes.

Personally, I don’t think a physical ranged DPS should do more than a melee DPS simply because physical ranged will always have 100% uptime on a boss, where as melee can easily lose uptime unless a party creates strats specifically to cater to uptime (see things like O12S Uptime strat). In the case of MNK, it’s also additionally punished for missed positionals, where as MCH doesn’t have to worry about that (just clipping issues during Wildfire+Hypercharge windows if you have higher ping).


To be honest, I’m having a hard time following your post, because it seems all over the place. I thought that this conversation was primarily about DRG versus MNK, but maybe it’s just late and I’m failing to see how all these comments are connected to the initial point of contestment.

[Drayos]

snip

hmm first few weeks DRG was actually much further apart, maybe the gaps closed Slightly more now then it was larger cause i remember Looking at it when i was levelling DRG and saw the DRG numbers popping off to begin with. im guessing its been lost to the 2 weekly resets the numbers now look more realistic in difference.

my arguments more about the difference between PDPS within each role.

comparing a BLM to a RDM/Summoner =

BLM - 11,677 - 14,744 0RDPS
RDM - 9,975 - 12,667 375 RDPS
Summoner 10,430 - 12,997 - For some reason this isnt actually measured?.. but i'd assume by buffs Its prolly 400ish.

Comparing Bard and dancer to Machinist

MCH 10,942 - 13,140 0 RDPS
bard 10,392 - 12,640 400 RDPS
Dancer 8,920 - 10.609 DPS 1600 RDPS

Comparing Monk Dragoon SAM ninja

SAM 11,120 - 13,820 0 RDPS
Dragoon 10,850 - 13,760 575 RDPS
Monk 11,105 - 13,625 400 RDPS
Ninja 9,105 - 11,392 925 RDPS

without cross comparison.

the Difference between Melee DPS is MUCH smaller, then Any other Roles, these are Quite big Differences between Roles in actual DPS between the 0RDPS and maximum PDPS. while The role still holds some of the highest RDPS Value Jobs in the game currently.

the Differences Were orginally justified by a RDPS Value, which says U cant Equal a PDPSER as a RDPSer due to u'd effectively outclass them in your respective roles, but it seems bent out of shape currently because the Weight of RDPS doesnt seem to be Equal Across these Jobs, but rather very different with Melee being the Worst offender, although it does sit at a 2 Melee Comp team, i dont feel like just accepting that is fine, and balancing could improve that situation to see More flexibility in the Additional Choice. closing the gap of Difference More would certainly increase the flexibility.

almost all these Jobs now excluding BLM,SAM,MCH and Ninja,Dancer All lay around 400-500 RDPS, so effectively their DPS Differences between their 0RDPS Brothers should be the same (As in BLM RDM and Summoners Difference in DPS Shouldnt be Wider then SAM Dragoon and Monks DPS) as the Weight of RDPS Should overall be the same when making these comparisons.

the only difference in opinon here is If they should achieve what has been agreed on Should be Done via Nerfing or buffing, which both have problems, u could Overnerf which would Result in a Worse result, Or could overbuff something which again would be a worse Result. neither are perfect, and i can understand why some would want Buffs to treat these problems instead of Nerfs, a Power creep is a Factor though, but maybe it wouldnt affect this game in the same way i've seen in prior games.

P.S

im aware my Orginal Arguments can seem very Wishwashy, Due to Personal reasons which dont really need discussing, My Translation onto Paper/Forums at times do go off the Wall alittle in reguards to my orginal Point, Sadly sometimes In the Moment of Replying to someone i Dont always initially pick up on That til someone points it out haha. so i apologise that my Prior points may not of been as Joined As they should have been. rereading what i had initally replied, does make my argument seem very much cross comparative which wasnt my orginal intention. my intention was More the PDPS Gaps between Each Roles Choices, Comparitively to the RDPS Offered by the lower PDPS Choices.

i mean imho, I feel some of the jobs should just go back to their SB Concepts, while i think the removal of the "increased Type of Damage" buffs was a good thing, i feel Would it of been better to give Utility back to them in a Different way as a Trade off would have been a Stronger approach, this expansion has tried to make this 400 RDPS, DPS choice thing pretty Strong, with Bards being Gutted, Dragoons Being Gutted in trade for Dancer.. but i dont really know why it had to happen.

if this was the push why didnt they just give all Jobs a 400 RDPS Value and Balance them Respectfully to what they are. While RDM could have been a 0 RDPS with the Instant Rezz Value making up their Raid Position. then balance them around Melee v Ranged v Caster etc etc

[ForteNightshade]

snip

... How did an debate over Monk and Dragoon devolve into bringing up literally every job? Your argument is all over the place, my dude. I'll try to parse through some relevant points...

First and foremost, you cannot directly compare melee, range and casters because they all compete for a unique spot. If you do elect to bring double range or caster, a melee will always be dropped. That said, the developers seem to intend for a 2M/1R/1C comp. And have balanced accordingly.

Now you mention several jobs needing buffs. Please indicate where I have suggested otherwise. You've twisted this into an entirely different argument and insinuated my stance whilst doing so. Either stick to the point or at least concede the initial debate before moving on. Regardless, I actually agree Samurai and Red Mage need some love. Ninja and Summoner have issues far beyond their lackluster DPS last I heard.

As for the numbers you mention. Where exactly did you pull out that 15k figure because I just checked current rankings and the highest a Dragoon has parsed was in the mid 13k range. In fact, the highest ranked Bard and Red Mage pull 13,600~ while Summoner is at 13,900. So again... where are you getting these numbers because this comes from Innocence EX.

I really think you ought to quit while you're... well, not ahead. But still...