Almost every complaint about the ShB job changes could be solved with talents

[Aurturia]

I skipped to the end after 5 pages of talking in circles but did anyone bring up that the first version of cross role skills was supposed to be customization feature even though everyone wound up taking the same 5 mandatory skills?

[Xyr]

That was my point. Why would they spend the time and resources trying to add and balance different skill trees if everyone is just going to go with the most optimal one anyways? That time is better spent just balancing the jobs as is and giving us new jobs to play.

Because it's fun and add more versatility? Back in WoW, I would switch spec/talent on every boss. 1 boss need more burst aoe because the adds need to die quickly? Change talent. One boss need more single target dps? Change talent. One boss has multiple targets with high healthy? Change to Dot spec.One boss has many small minions close to the boss? Change to sustained aoe talents. The versatility was amazing and made sure no class got left behind.

[DarkEiraStar]

Hard pass. I hated talents in WoW and every required cookie cutter build. The illusion of choice is not a choice at all. No matter how much work devs put into balance these so called choices, there will always be one that is just better. Hardcore people will find the best "options" post them online and casuals will be like "Cool, I'll take this build and be awesome." Its the same story for every MMO, and like it or not, humans as a group are entirely predictable creatures.

[Xyr]

Hard pass. I hated talents in WoW and every required cookie cutter build. The illusion of choice is not a choice at all. No matter how much work devs put into balance these so called choices, there will always be one that is just better. Hardcore people will find the best "options" post them online and casuals will be like "Cool, I'll take this build and be awesome." Its the same story for every MMO, and like it or not, humans as a group are entirely predictable creatures.

In WoW, there is no such a thing as "The most optimal" Because they have diverse raids, wherein different situations require different talents. The choice is not a illusion, because there will be more than 1 optimal build depending on the scenario, therefore more choices.

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/zone/rankings/23 and https://www.fflogs.com/zone/rankings/28
Here's a comparison between the two games. One has huge diversity in terms of top rankings in dps, while the other is literally all Black Mage. This is the difference between having versatility regarding talents and optimization vs none. It's not a illusion.

[DarkEiraStar]

In WoW, there is no such a thing as "The most optimal" Because they have diverse raids, wherein different situations require different talents. The choice is not a illusion, because there will be more than 1 optimal build depending on the scenario, therefore more choices.

Did we even play the same game?

[ItsDevinHere]

In WoW, there is no such a thing as "The most optimal" Because they have diverse raids, wherein different situations require different talents. The choice is not a illusion, because there will be more than 1 optimal build depending on the scenario, therefore more choices.

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/zone/rankings/23 and https://www.fflogs.com/zone/rankings/28
Here's a comparison between the two games. One has huge diversity in terms of top rankings in dps, while the other is literally all Black Mage. This is the difference between having versatility regarding talents and optimization vs none. It's not a illusion.

Did you even look at the logs you linked? If you looked closer at the talents of same classes literally almost all of their talents are the exact same. The mages are using the same talents, warriors using the same talents, druids using the same talents. There's only like 1 or 2 SINGLE talent differences, but the other 15 are exactly the same as everyone else. It's exactly an illusion of choice.

[Xyr]

Did we even play the same game?

I don't know why you posted that, because it contradicts your point. According to your chart, you can pick 1 talent in each tier, which means a total of 7 talents in your chart. There's 4 ? talents which means viable depending on the situation, and 10 check marked talents which means optimal. 14 viable talents for 7 that's 14!/(7!(14-7)!) = 3432 combinations. Although, some choices are locked out as there are only a single choice for that tier so the total combinations is probably around 100, but I'm too lazy to look up the formula. However, even 10 choices is still better than 1.

Did you even look at the logs you linked? If you looked closer at the talents of same classes literally almost all of their talents are the exact same. The mages are using the same talents, warriors using the same talents, druids using the same talents. There's only like 1 or 2 SINGLE talent differences, but the other 15 are exactly the same as everyone else. It's exactly an illusion of choice.

Nope, they aren't using the same talents. Did you look at different bosses? The same class might be using the same talents for 1 boss, but they are using different talents for a different boss, hence choice, and not illusion either. Also, again, there's many more classes in the top ranking whereas FFXIV logs consists of Black mages only. That's a diversity ratio of 10-1.

[DarkEiraStar]

I don't know why you posted that, because it contradicts your point. According to your chart, you can pick 1 talent in each tier, which means a total of 7 talents in your chart. There's 4 ? talents which means viable depending on the situation, and 10 check marked talents which means optimal. 14 viable talents for 7 that's 14!/(7!(14-7)!) = 3432 combinations. Although, some choices are locked out as there are only a single choice for that tier so the total combinations is probably around 500, but I'm too lazy to look up the formula. However, 500 choices is still better than 1.

1 choice in almost every tier that is considered "viable" while the rest are considered trash or only better in niche circumstances. That is the very definition of illusion of choice. And that is just for 1 spec on 1 class. Every single one of them is like that.

[ItsDevinHere]

Nope, they aren't using the same talents. Did you look at different bosses? The same class might be using the same talents for 1 boss, but they are using different talents for a different boss, hence choice, and not illusion either. Also, again, there's many more classes in the top ranking whereas FFXIV logs consists of Black mages only. That's a diversity ratio of 10-1.

Yes I did, and my point stands, the majority of the talents stay the same with only a few changing. Between different bosses it's like 2 or 3 talent changes, but then the next boss they go back to the previous used ones, so there's still only like 1 or 2 options for fights. I will concede to you that there's a small choice, but overall for the whole talent system it's an illusion of choice, the fact that the majority of the talents are set in stone is my point that it's an illusion of choice. What is even the point of having an option for those talents that never change if you never change them.

I will give it to you based on those logs Black Mage is always on top, but the other classes at least seem to be more diversified. Though I would rather take that then a useless talent system.

[Xia_Thas]

Considering how bad of a spot WoW is in lately I'd say anything from it should be lessons other developers learn from vs blindly implementing into their game that's not been balanced for it for nearly a decade. There's a reason we even have the WoW Refugee memes, the game is going downhill so maybe keep it's garbage out of FFXIV?