Almost every complaint about the ShB job changes could be solved with talents

[Ardox]

But wait, wouldnt that make it that some clases will be significantly better at one fight, so instead of a player being able to do all of the content with the class/job it chose, the player would have to have more than one job, or will all the jobs do the same thing? If you cant ignore the stat, it means a class (or talent) will be better at it, doesnt it? because if everyone is equally good at it then what is the point?

No, the idea is to introduce variation in builds within a job, not changing the variation between jobs.

In essence, if you compare each job with a build where both stat are at 50%/50% of their max potential, then you get the same distribution as you get today. Then builds where stats are at 75/25 will hit harder, but sap shield less quickly. It introduce differences within the job, not across them. (In before) I'm talking about modifier relative values, not absolute values (no case of a party of 8 having put everything in one stat resulting in a invincible boss).

That said, it's only a thought experiment, a way to answer if there's a way to make something else than DPS matter. I don't see anything of the sort happening since SE has taken the route of simplifying the game (taking away player induced status and debuffs, restricting the amount of relevant stats for each jobs, unaspecting all magic damage, streamlining magic/physic damage to the point the line is too blured to really matter)

[Proxanna]

This has kind of been one of my main hangups with the game is the homogenization of the jobs and gear. It does kind of make you feel "just like everyone else". But on the other hand, balancing a system like that is a nightmare and that's why you see other games like WoW and GW2 completely butcher their talent trees by giving fewer choices and making them more rigid. Even then, when it seems like they're giving you a choice in your spec they're really just giving you the illusion of choice if you want to play the class optimally. Then it just becomes a chore for the player because they have to research the best builds for their class. I mean don't get me wrong, I know there are a lot of people that actually enjoy that and I'm one of them, but this is a game designed to cater to a large casual player base who probably don't want to deal with all of that.

Because of this I don't think they'll ever add them to this game. They've already completely removed custom stat speccing and gutted the cross class skills to simplify them even more. I think the closest we'll ever come to having customizable jobs is their iteration of BLU and whatever other limited jobs they decide to add.

[Xyr]

Even then, when it seems like they're giving you a choice in your spec they're really just giving you the illusion of choice if you want to play the class optimally. Then it just becomes a chore for the player because they have to research the best builds for their class. I mean don't get me wrong, I know there are a lot of people that actually enjoy that and I'm one of them, but this is a game designed to cater to a large casual player base who probably don't want to deal with all of that.

You make it sound like we don't already do this in FFXIV. Optimization happens in every game.

[Laur1x]

NIN is so bad that they'd just opt to never use it even in a group setting. I see your point, and actually agree with your post overall, but trust me, NIN needs A LOT more work than that atm.

[Dynia]

skill tree from wow tbc or d2 plox

[ItsDevinHere]

Yes, hardcore raiding groups are going to require the optimal build and that's OK. The rest of us could just use the skills we enjoy.

(Note from ItsDevinHere) Cut this down so I could have my reply and you'd still be pinged.

I've read through the whole thread. There's a few things I've noticed, first being you either ignore a comment by not replying to it (or you don't see it, ill give you some benefit of the doubt but my point still stands), or you simply try to make an counter-argument, but end up making the same argument, but just phrasing it different like you just did again, though I will give to you that you actually added a couple different things this time, but it took you 9 pages of responses to do that. You do though repeat yourself without trying to make a different case on why it's a good idea to have talents. You keep saying it's diverse and fun in a different way over and over, you gotta have more reasons than that for an MMO and counter why the other people are wrong about it making it less fun and not toxic, this isn't a single-player game where that can be considered fine and a good idea simply because it's diverse and more fun.

Second, your strawman argument you've thrown out like 10 times, I really don't think you know what that word means. Here's the definition "A straw man is a form of argument and an informal fallacy based on giving the impression of refuting an opponent's argument, while actually refuting an argument that was not presented by that opponent." There was at no point in time that someone added words you didn't say. You stated that many other MMOs use talents and therefore FFXIV should be able to do it. People countered that by saying those MMOs generally do a bad job at it and it just ends up being a metapick for the best talents. You then stated that some MMOs do it correctly, then people asked you to give some examples, you then said it was a strawman argument. I don't think you meant it badly, but it just makes it sound like you don't know any MMOs that do it right, but don't want to be wrong, so you say his argument is invalid. I hope you understand where they're coming from now.

Third, and what has been reiterated about 30 times here. FFXIV is too rigid and is meant for people to easily pick up and play. Adding talents, will immediately complicate that and make it harder for new players because they now have to worry about picking talents, XIV is also just not designed in a way to allow talents, it's designed to balance the jobs, adding talents will further complicate that to where the devs would have to try to balance all these talents, and make sure that each different choice that someone can pick is the exact same viability as the other ones then on TOP of that they then have to balance that job with the other jobs, which is basically never going to happen for FFXIV, im sorry to tell you, Yoshi has said it himself as someone has stated.

Lastly, your argument that only hardcore raiders will use optimal builds and the rest of people will use the skills they will enjoy is false. One, no, not only hardcore raiders will use optimal builds, even casual raiders will use optimal builds. Literally look at basically any other MMO and you will see that even the casuals use the optimal builds. You will get kicked from a group for not having the optimal build, yes even in casual raids. But even beyond that point, I don't think you understand the affect adding skills would have on the community, if you think it's toxic now (which I completely disagree with) then you will be in for a surprise if they added skills. After a couple months of it being out, players will learn the optimal build, and now this build will be standard. Everybody will use it, anybody that doesn't use it will get either kicked from groups or yelled at, it will happen, it will not only be hardcore raiders, it happens in every MMO with talent trees that work like that. I've played a good number of MMOs in my years and even in dungeons people will get mad at you for having the wrong talents. This is just the life of talents, I think most people here want to avoid that.

I think your main issue, is that you don't want to be wrong/only your opinion is right. Everyone is just stating their opinions, and people are even conceding that the other side has some points on some things. But you consistently refuse to even acknowledge that the other side has a point, and just kept countering with the same argument, just look back at your comments to see. I think you just need to take a step back and realize what you're doing. It's okay not to win every argument you have. It seems like this thread and your comments is more of you stating your opinion as fact and everyone needs to agree with you.

[Rakshazi]

The only complaint I personaly have is the MCH changes. The job has lost all it's identity for me. It was a job with a firearm, that you should to put some ammo in it. MANUALY. It was so FUN. But now all we have is the generic ranged DPS. No personality. You can just replace all of his "tech-design" effects on skills and won't even notice the change. He feels and plays GENERIC now, not unique, like it was before. It can't be changed back with some talents. They need to revert him back. And, tbh, this whole new summoned mecha looks and feels awfull, out of place and stupid. The job is dead for me.

[Kurando]

snip.

Wut? How is it a generic ranged DPS when it now has a completely unique toolkit? The MCH before felt like a poor man's SMN, and other jobs could do what it did much better for less punishment. Now it's actually a Machinist -not a simple job with a gun, but using technology/tools-, if you wanted some kind of Gunslinger tooting John Wayne style job, you are probably unlikely to get that in this game.

[Rakshazi]

Wut? How is it a generic ranged DPS when it now has a completely unique toolkit? The MCH before felt like a poor man's SMN, and other jobs could do what it did much better for less punishment. Now it's actually a Machinist -not a simple job with a gun, but using technology/tools-, if you wanted some kind of Gunslinger tooting John Wayne style job, you are probably unlikely to get that in this game.

AS I TOLD BEFORE - replace any of his "technology/tools" efect on the skill and you will not see the difference. But in order to FEEL the job as a FIREARM user and TECHNOLOGY user they need to rework him. The reload mechanic was realy fun and added that feel of firearm. And, if you've leveled MCH before you would know that even whole job STORY are about implementing the commoners with firearm. IMPLEMENTING. FIREARM. And what do we have now? The generic ranged DPS. No individuality at all. The firearm and all those "tools", as you called them, are like any other gauge based skills. You don't need to reload, you don't need to actualy have some skill to use wildfire anymore. I've ENJOYED the MCH before. Not this time. It's bleak and empty now. They could've just leave the reload mechanic and make the skill rotation around it. That would've been so fun... But they made this job to easy and generic thus removed all it's identity with it.

[Proxanna]

You make it sound like we don't already do this in FFXIV. Optimization happens in every game.

That was my point. Why would they spend the time and resources trying to add and balance different skill trees if everyone is just going to go with the most optimal one anyways? That time is better spent just balancing the jobs as is and giving us new jobs to play.