Almost every complaint about the ShB job changes could be solved with talents

[Xyr]

Excuse me but... the topic is "adding talent trees", not "changing of classes/jobs" nor "adding new specs like in WoW".

Because for the longest time in WoW, what talents you picked determined what spec you were, want to be a healer? Pick talents that increase healing. People use WoW for reference all the time because it is very popular.

[Ardox]

Off course people will try to find the optimal strategy.. Having people investing time to find it means they are invested in the game, right? Fighting the Meta is not a good approach.

My point was, to make something else than DPS matter, you needs something else that either matter as much or matter more. DPS can't be done without as long as there is HP because, ultimately, you want to kill the thing.

I'm not saying my example was perfect, but there's merit behind it: Whatever is optimal the DPS/Shield-Drain value for one boss won't be the same for the other one.. It won't even be the same between mobs and boss. My point is it will vary, it will be a stat that you can't just ignore. It will make it harder to say: This is the gearset you need and it needs that list of materai melded to it because it wouldn't be true for all situations.

Let's just healer peel the shield off? Okay, but they need to heal too, maybe it'll work perfect for one fight, then the next is AoE-intensive and it's the tank turn to peel it off..

[reyre]

Off course people will try to find the optimal strategy.. Having people investing time to find it means they are invested in the game, right? Fighting the Meta is not a good approach.

My point was, to make something else than DPS matter, you needs something else that either matter as much or matter more. DPS can't be done without as long as there is HP because, ultimately, you want to kill the thing.

I'm not saying my exampe was perfect, but there's merit behind it: Whatever is optimal the DPS/Shield-Drain value for one boss won't be the same for the other one.. It won't even be the same between mobs and boss. My point is it will vary, it will be a stat that you can't just ignore. It will make it harder to say: This is the gearset you need and it needs that list of materai melded to it because it wouldn't be true for all situations.

Let's just healer peel the shield off? Okay, but they need to heal too, maybe it'll work perfect for one fight, then the next there's a lot of AoE and it's turn to the tank to peel it off..

But wait, wouldnt that make it that some clases will be significantly better at one fight, so instead of a player being able to do all of the content with the class/job it chose, the player would have to have more than one job, or will all the jobs do the same thing? If you cant ignore the stat, it means a class (or talent) will be better at it, doesnt it? because if everyone is equally good at it then what is the point?

[Samsta]

Talent trees in MMO can be implemented correctly, which means that different talents offer tools for different situations, they are not competing versus another but offer alternatives. However, this means that the game would actually need different content where different talent choices are needed. Let's say we have to choose between survivability or damage, there isn't really any content where survivability would be preferable. Although that could be done by making the survivability talent really good while offering only a minor dps boost. like let's say paladin can choose between 50% damage reduction cd or off gcd skill which deals like 200 potency every minute or so. At that point I could see both options being valid for progression groups, although the damage would still probably be preferred later.

People saying talent trees can't be balanced are not correct, even in current WoW there are some tiers which have 2 or 3 valid choices. FFXIV is just so rigid in it's content that making talents balanced would be pretty huge task that they are not gonna undertake most probably.

BTW don't take it too harshly if people strawman you or are just dicks generally, that tends to be the trend in every MMO forum; people lack basic argumental skills and jump to conclusions and present their opinions harshly while rejecting other opinions. This is still better than reddit where your thread would be dead with all the downvotes because you have a different opinion.

[Awful]

Look up Path of Exile too if you want a good example of "Unlimited Choices" but really only about 5 builds that work past a certain point.

I know this is off topic but that's extremely wrong, any build can work in PoE I played a Cast While Channeling/Volatile Dead/Scorching Ray Chieftain in Betrayal League on HC got to lvl 95 and died to Guardians before Uber Elder, a build can work it's the investment in PoE so that doesn't apply here at all and no one played Chieftain because it wasn't meta.

On topic no talents aren't gonna help with "choice" Legion and WoD started this trend with talents every milestone and the talents ranged from meta > passable > garbage, people are gonna go with the best talents and not bother with the garbage ones. I did Mythic+ mostly in Legion and BfA and you'd go with the best talents for Blood DK which is what I played, you'd hardly switch your talents out even despite the modifiers for the week because the talents you had were already so strong compared to the other ones.

Would I like more choice in XIV? Sure, but I don't like the illusion of choice if it was a concrete thing that if I could swap between outside of raids to benefit me for another raid then maybe I could see that it'd be engaging.

[GrenGarm]

OP here. I'm glad to see this discussion turning in a more constructive direction.

The way I see it, every expansion is going to bring new abilities to jobs. So you have four options:

1. Just add new ones
2. Upgrade existing ones, like Air Anchor and High Jump
3. Cut old ones to make room
4. Allow choice

Square has been doing 1, 2, and 3. Maybe they can do that forever, maybe not. 3 has caused a lot of bad feelings, like BRD losing Foe Requiem. 2 isn't very exciting in most cases. And 1 is unsustainable.

So maybe at some point they can give 4 a shot. The way I imagine it, it would be like the old cross-class UI (that is still used for crafting/gathering), except you'd only have skills from your own job.

As an example, say you have three slots to choose, but six skills. So for NIN in 6.0, you could choose three out of Trick Attack, Ten Chi Jin, Assassinate, Mesui, and a couple of new skills. It doesn't have to get more complicated than that.

That would allow players a little bit of agency in how the job feels and plays. Obviously the skills would have to be balanced within a certain percent to avoid useless "noob traps" and TA would have to be balanced to come out ahead in a group but behind when solo.

Yes, hardcore raiding groups are going to require the optimal build and that's OK. The rest of us could just use the skills we enjoy.

[Ryaz]

*thinking about WoW's talents clusterfuck and the many imbalances (looking at you Surrender to Madness from Legion)*

*thinking about people always taking the most optimal talents anyway*

*thinking about SE implementing a talent system out of the blue after nearly a decade and just after removing the cross job skills (the closest thing of a "talent tree" we got)*

I don't know buddy, I don't think it will ever change. I could be wrong but I don't feel like it will.

Exactly my thoughts.

[MerlinCross]

I know this is off topic but that's extremely wrong, any build can work in PoE I played a Cast While Channeling/Volatile Dead/Scorching Ray Chieftain in Betrayal League on HC got to lvl 95 and died to Guardians before Uber Elder, a build can work it's the investment in PoE so that doesn't apply here at all and no one played Chieftain because it wasn't meta.

On topic no talents aren't gonna help with "choice" Legion and WoD started this trend with talents every milestone and the talents ranged from meta > passable > garbage, people are gonna go with the best talents and not bother with the garbage ones. I did Mythic+ mostly in Legion and BfA and you'd go with the best talents for Blood DK which is what I played, you'd hardly switch your talents out even despite the modifiers for the week because the talents you had were already so strong compared to the other ones.

Would I like more choice in XIV? Sure, but I don't like the illusion of choice if it was a concrete thing that if I could swap between outside of raids to benefit me for another raid then maybe I could see that it'd be engaging.

Yeah, any build can work in PoE. That's why Berserkers were outnumbered by unpromoted Witches for a while, because they worked right? This is however something we can take to PMs.

The point I'm trying to make is that the idea of a talent system is interesting in a vacuum. But with context of the game's fights, how the devs balance, and the community; I do not see how adding talents changes much about the game beyond being fresh and different for about a month before the math gets cracked.

[Awful]

Yeah, any build can work in PoE. That's why Berserkers were outnumbered by unpromoted Witches for a while, because they worked right? This is however something we can take to PMs.

The point I'm trying to make is that the idea of a talent system is interesting in a vacuum. But with context of the game's fights, how the devs balance, and the community; I do not see how adding talents changes much about the game beyond being fresh and different for about a month before the math gets cracked.

Sorry I didn't mean to come off as angry in texts I wasn't just putting that on there, and no worries it shoulda been taken to DMs you're right, and I agree after a month people would number crunch and get that up ASAP I like the idea it's just sadly as you said with the balance and game fights it wouldn't be feasible.

[ColaSama]

I know this is off topic but that's extremely wrong, any build can work in PoE I played a Cast While Channeling/Volatile Dead/Scorching Ray Chieftain in Betrayal League on HC got to lvl 95 and died to Guardians before Uber Elder, a build can work it's the investment in PoE so that doesn't apply here at all and no one played Chieftain because it wasn't meta

You know, the term "Elder-viable" does exist for a reason. Not every build can do anything, let alone the hardest content, let alone in HC league.

But even if every build was "viable" (and they are clearly not, some great theorycrafters try many builds and find out that some are just worthless in the end, even with somewhat expensive gear), some are just too good when compared to others. Just look at Legion league : why play any other build at the start than EC Contagion ? It cleans the map in what, 2 seconds ? Compare it to melee.

Seriously, saying that every build is viable in PoE sounds a bit arrogant, when clearly it's not the case.