Almost every complaint about the ShB job changes could be solved with talents

[Shurrikhan]

Oops I deleted my comment because I misread and thought that the OP was comparing it to WoW lol.

I think that '' Illusion of choice '' is exactly what I'd call the talent system in current WoW.
Vanilla was a bit all over the place, it was a lot more chaotic than it is today because most people were so new to MMO's. But Vanilla did have some more varied builds as far as I remember altho they revolved more around a strong niche.
In current WoW tho it's basically '' do you wanna take the shitty talent, or do you want to take the good/ least bad one? ''.

You might want to play the game you're talking about at something like a decently high level before you spout off this stuff. The difference between one talent and another, unless specifically bringing a single-target talent to an AoE fight or vice versa, averages to within a fraction of a percent. Some are more vital, or better play upon the strength of the spec, and therefore become nearly obligatory, but are even then very closely balanced and the less favored talents usually have niche uses or party pacings at which they outperform the conventional talent sets.

Yes, in WoW, especially until recently, a Prot Warrior should have Unstoppable Force and Bolster, but that's only because there's only certain niche situations in which the spec itself, until recently, was worth taking over other tanks, which those talents aided far better than other talents; that would still be the case even if the other talents were overpowered by comparison. But that's not, then, an issue of the talents so much as it is innately specialized class choices (i.e. leaving so much choice of toolkit to one's class selection rather than the talents available to that class), something we don't have in as much severity here where, for instance, tanks are far more homogenized.

[Drayos]

You might want to play the game you're talking about at something like a decently high level before you spout off this stuff. The difference between one talent and another, unless specifically bringing a single-target talent to an AoE fight or vice versa, averages to within a fraction of a percent. Some are more vital, or better play upon the strength of the spec, and therefore become nearly obligatory, but are even then very closely balanced and the less favored talents usually have niche uses or party pacings at which they outperform the conventional talent sets.

Yes, in WoW, especially until recently, a Prot Warrior should have Unstoppable Force and Bolster, but that's only because there's only certain niche situations in which the spec itself, until recently, was worth taking over other tanks, which those talents aided far better than other talents; that would still be the case even if the other talents were overpowered by comparison. But that's not, then, an issue of the talents so much as it is innately specialized class choices (i.e. leaving so much choice of toolkit to one's class selection rather than the talents available to that class), something we don't have in as much severity here where, for instance, tanks are far more homogenized.

This tbh, WoW did alot espically in its recent expansions to really bring talents out to Mostly being useful, Even cookie cutter builds, still have 3 Alternative builds which u use in different enviroments.

In short could Talents work in FFXIV? Ofcourse it could, more options is never a bad option, even if they make 12 and 3 are dead, you as a Player have more control over your characters ability and Options to a level of customization.

The bits i dont like about talents however is:

WoW used talents to implement Optional Difficulty, 1 build could be Easymode while another be Difficult, i feel jobs should stand upon their own difficulty level naturally, its Ridiculous the concept that a Easymode build could be the best option for One side of things and then the job randomly Punchs a new difficulty level mid expansion. we saw this Espically with feral druid.

Taking old Abilities which completed Jobs as a "option", i hated this idea, Recycling old abilities in while can be "good" in some cases oftenly was irritating, Talents should build on what the Job has, not complete the Job.

Pruning the core jobs to make Room for "nicht decisions" the Job shouldnt pay a price to have a talent system, it should be a Addition to what we have, not a replacement to what we currently have.

If SE can avoid doing any of these things, i think a implementation of a Talent system would not be negative, weather SE Can do that challange, or If that challange is Worth while compared to another Option i dont know.

[Gun-Cat]

But in the end of the day all that would really happen is what always happens I think.
Something would very clearly be meta, and everyone would go with that.

Isn't that what is already happening and why it is justified that some jobs get nerfed every other patch?

I don't see a talent tree to be very useful. But if the devs would give us the opportunity to switch playstyles around that might be cool. With the the older jobs still having classes and jobs, maybe let the player decide what to emphasis? Either go more towards Archer and have a class that is very much about personal DPS like these days or go Bard and get your Stormblood support songs back in exchange for damage. Ninja is a damage dealer with heavy mudra use while Rogue specializes in group support with TA and less latency reliance.

And yes, there would be an optimal speedkill combo, but I honestly that will always be the case. Only 8 Jobs can take part in a raid so if people really want to maximise they will always find the one meta combo.

[MerlinCross]

Isn't that what is already happening and why it is justified that some jobs get nerfed every other patch?

I don't see a talent tree to be very useful. But if the devs would give us the opportunity to switch playstyles around that might be cool. With the the older jobs still having classes and jobs, maybe let the player decide what to emphasis? Either go more towards Archer and have a class that is very much about personal DPS like these days or go Bard and get your Stormblood support songs back in exchange for damage. Ninja is a damage dealer with heavy mudra use while Rogue specializes in group support with TA and less latency reliance.

And yes, there would be an optimal speedkill combo, but I honestly that will always be the case. Only 8 Jobs can take part in a raid so if people really want to maximise they will always find the one meta combo.

While a decent idea on paper, haven't the Devs come out and said one of the more infuriating things to balance is SMN and SCH because they both break off from Arcanist? To the point they aren't going to make another one that functions like that.

[Zerathor]

I really don't want average players to have an additional opportunity to do everything wrong in their settup and rotations. They're already more than capable of doing so and dragging down a party.

[Videra]

I really don't want average players to have an additional opportunity to do everything wrong in their settup and rotations. They're already more than capable of doing so and dragging down a party.

Big this. BIG THIS.

[MerlinCross]

I really don't want average players to have an additional opportunity to do everything wrong in their settup and rotations. They're already more than capable of doing so and dragging down a party.

And thus do the ffloggers, elites, and number crunchers would find another way to hold sway over the average players. Don't have this talent set up? You are bad and shouldn't be playing this game. Everyone should follow this set up because it is the meta. Anything that isn't meta get out of the party and go respec.

Yeah this is why adding Talents is a bad idea. There's no choice, there's either; do it 'right' or mess up.

[Shurrikhan]

And thus do the ffloggers, elites, and number crunchers would find another way to hold sway over the average players. Don't have this talent set up? You are bad and shouldn't be playing this game. Everyone should follow this set up because it is the meta. Anything that isn't meta get out of the party and go respec.

Yeah this is why adding Talents is a bad idea. There's no choice, there's either; do it 'right' or mess up.

The "elitists" you're talking about are also aware of how much impact different factors have and how long they take to correct. Your jumping off cliffs, wearing last expansions' gear, and breaking your own combos will come well before any discussion of talents.

And it's not the actual number crunchers who tend to enforce meta comps, probably because they look less at the classes and more at... the number. They don't need to oversimplify situations in the absence of numeric values; they have the values, and often enjoy the testing and experimentation that surrounds those numbers as produced by new ideas.
Number crunchers were the first to add BLM back in alongside SMN and make use of all-physical Monk parties despite the NIN/DRG/MCH/BRD meta, because when one actually paid attention to what they're doing the numbers were just as high (and eventually just barely eclipsed double-Ranged).

Who did insist on meta comps? (1) People who couldn't clear without every advantage of ease of damage, (2) people who obsessed over their pDPS numbers but had no idea what tDPS was, and (3) farm parties for whom conventional setups could at least also suggest conventional knowledge, a sort of tangential proof for you knowing what you're doing.
None of those communities were the direct result of actual number crunching.

[MerlinCross]

The "elitists" you're talking about are also aware of how much impact different factors have and how long they take to correct. Your jumping off cliffs, wearing last expansions' gear, and breaking your own combos will come well before any discussion of talents.

And it's not the actual number crunchers who tend to enforce meta comps, probably because they look less at the classes and more at... the number. They don't need to oversimplify situations in the absence of numeric values; they have the values, and often enjoy the testing and experimentation that surrounds those numbers as produced by new ideas.
Number crunchers were the first to add BLM back in alongside SMN and make use of all-physical Monk parties despite the NIN/DRG/MCH/BRD meta, because when one actually paid attention to what they're doing the numbers were just as high (and eventually just barely eclipsed double-Ranged).

Who did insist on meta comps? (1) People who couldn't clear without every advantage of ease of damage, (2) people who obsessed over their pDPS numbers but had no idea what tDPS was, and (3) farm parties for whom conventional setups could at least also suggest conventional knowledge, a sort of tangential proof for you knowing what you're doing.
None of those communities were the direct result of actual number crunching.

Given how ingrained "Know the fight" is to the game that even trying to find a good learning party is at times a slog outside of an FC(seriously who puts Duty Complete and then puts down "Learning Party" in the description?), that's a subject I didn't think to actually address. It's just assumed these days. Much like Talents are going to be assumed. The community will assume talent line up X even if you find something more fun.

I don't blame the people that full on experiment, number crunch, and keep actively trying to find that 5% extra damage or 30 second faster clear time. They have the numbers in front of them and they hopefully also have the skill to back up taking what might be a crazy risk. That's fun and interesting. Not for me but if they find it fun, go for it.

It's the people that take that data and run with it as the gospel one truth that I have a problem with. The "Copy Crunchers" as it were, those that readily accept the data and choose not to find a different way. It might not be the top player's or number crunchers FAULT but that's still going to just happen. Play the 'correct way' or be kicked. The info the crunchers put out is going to be picked up by the playerbase. It's what happened with STR accessories in Heavensward.

Talents will just be another 'solved' issue and you'll be expected follow it by the community. Heck I already can see some fights where failing the DPS check even on normal is going to have people chime in with "We failed the check, who's talents are wrong?".

I still see no reason as to why Talents will fix everything when the community is just going to accept talent set up X and everyone is expected to run it or be bad.

[Shurrikhan]

The "Copy Crunchers" as it were.

Now that I'll readily agree with. Sadly the only solution to that group seems to be better in-game information, better in-game learning systems, greater transparency, system intuitiveness, reasonable consistency (such as all AoEs snapshotting damage at precisely the end of their casts), better prepared but less circumventable learning checks, better difficulty curves, and the like -- all things which XIV could benefit from regardless, but doesn't seem to have the slightest inclination to work towards.

When skill gap can be reduced through average player understanding and engagement rather than reduced rewards for effort and learning, the Dunning–Kruger portion of the playerbase rapidly shrinks.