Pulling the bosses In dungeons as DPS a thing now?

[Nyoraii]

I think this boils down to one thing, as others have said before: DPS arrogance.

Why? Because unless the dps is managing the tank's cooldowns and knows the tank's gear and the healer's gear, him pulling other mobs is basically gambling. I've had times when I'm tanking with a healer that likes to dps more than heal; times when I pulled more and I didn't have my cds up and the healer couldn't handle it; times when I pulled a lot but my gear was undertuned for the content... these all lead to wipes and experience for the tank. And yes, knowing your cooldowns and seeing how the healer plays, it is the job of the tank to set the pace and to lead. Unless the DPS has all of this knowledge, it isn't his job to do anything other than dps.

However, if the DPS is discontent with the pace, he could always respectfully ask the party to go quicker, whats the problem with having communication? Moreover, if the healer wants to pull more, then it falls to him to keep the party alive even if the tank is out of cds, so good luck to to the healer. I'm bothered by DPS pulls, not really healer pulls because then it's just a matter of the healer taking responsability for the outcome.

[Kaitoo]

I think this boils down to one thing, as others have said before: DPS arrogance.

Why? Because unless the dps is managing the tank's cooldowns and knows the tank's gear and the healer's gear, him pulling other mobs is basically gambling. I've had times when I'm tanking with a healer that likes to dps more than heal; times when I pulled more and I didn't have my cds up and the healer couldn't handle it; times when I pulled a lot but my gear was undertuned for the content... these all lead to wipes and experience for the tank. And yes, knowing your cooldowns and seeing how the healer plays, it is the job of the tank to set the pace and to lead. Unless the DPS has all of this knowledge, it isn't his job to do anything other than dps.

However, if the DPS is discontent with the pace, he could always respectfully ask the party to go quicker, whats the problem with having communication? Moreover, if the healer wants to pull more, then if falls to him to keep the party alive even if I'm out of cds, so good luck to him. I'm bothered by DPS pulls, not really healer pulls because then it's just a matter of the healer taking responsability for the outcome.

i too have a time trigger mili second layout of my tank cds when i pulling the dungeon boss!

[Nyoraii]

i too have a time trigger mili second layout of my tank cds when i pulling the dungeon boss!

Gratz! Want some soy milk with that sarcasm? Lmao.

That post was about the dps pulling in general, not only boss pulls, but I guess your reading comprehension skills are too low to pick up on that.

[Shurrikhan]

I think this boils down to one thing, as others have said before: DPS arrogance.

Why? Because unless the dps is managing the tank's cooldowns and knows the tank's gear and the healer's gear.

Except, I do examine gear at the start of the dungeon, and do track my party's cooldowns, including remembering my tank's CD scheduling and my healer's oGCD habits. The habit probably comes, from, idk, having one healer main character and another tank main character?

Just because someone swaps over to a different job toolkit doesn't mean they suddenly lose the player skillsets they had before. I better know how to tank because I also dps and heal. I better know how to heal because I also tank and can track when DPS AoE burst will be ready and when focus targeting in a 3-4 mob situation will better suit mine and my tank's needs. And I better know how to DPS because I know tank CD and pull habits, and which mob special attacks are worth stunning for positioning or mitigation. If all goes well, minimal attention is required, because each role allows the others to perform in its optimal range.

But, competent tanking includes being able to gauge what your party is capable of and meeting its maxima as to allow that better and far more straightforward performance. It wouldn't just be a matter of miscommunication if we could easily full-pull but I, the tank, won't. It'd be a failing on my part. It'd be me not properly performing my role. That's why you have DPS a little peeved when they have to communicate a tank's job to them, just as a tank would be peeved when a DPS is clearly not rotating correctly or blows CDs at the end of one small trash pack right before another full pull. If it's not a job the tank is willing to take on, then why should they feel insulted when a DPS does?

[Nyoraii]

Except, I do examine gear at the start of the dungeon, and do track my party's cooldowns, including remembering my tank's CD scheduling and my healer's oGCD habits. The habit probably comes, from, idk, having one healer main character and another tank main character?

Just because someone swaps over to a different job toolkit doesn't mean they suddenly lose the player skillsets they had before. I better know how to tank because I also dps and heal. I better know how to heal because I also tank and can track when DPS AoE burst will be ready and when focus targeting in a 3-4 mob situation will better suit mine and my tank's needs. And I better know how to DPS because I know tank CD and pull habits, and which mob special attacks are worth stunning for positioning or mitigation. If all goes well, minimal attention is required, because each role allows the others to perform in its optimal range.

But, competent tanking includes being able to gauge what your party is capable of and meeting its maxima as to allow that better and far more straightforward performance. It wouldn't just be a matter of miscommunication if we could easily full-pull but I, the tank, won't. It'd be a failing on my part. It'd be me not properly performing my role. That's why you have DPS a little peeved when they have to communicate a tank's job to them, just as a tank would be peeved when a DPS is clearly not rotating correctly or blows CDs at the end of one small trash pack right before another full pull. If it's not a job the tank is willing to take on, then why should they feel insulted when a DPS does?

If you really do what you're saying you do, which I kinda doubt, why not just speak to the party? If I see a dps underperforming, not using AoEs, I wouldn't just reduce my pulls to cater to him, I'd be frank and ask him why he isn't using AoEs, it's that simple. The problem of not communicating is that you risk being misinterpreted. We're only humans, after all.

[Shurrikhan]

If you really do what you're saying you do, which I kinda doubt, why not just speak to the party? If I see a dps underperforming, not using AoEs, I wouldn't just reduce my pulls to cater to him, I'd be frank and ask him why he isn't using AoEs, it's that simple. The problem of not communicating is that you risk being misinterpreted. We're only humans, after all.

I communicate. That said, "Please AoE when fighting 3+ mobs, and focus the same mob as everyone else when attacking the remainder," tends to me met with the same silence or offhand crude comment as "Tank, the healer has been able to keep you alive thus far off a single Regen and a couple oGCDs, and our damage is plentiful. We should be safe to do full pulls. Do you mind if we try them?"

Yes, I have multiple macros for each. They see use in about every fourth run. They have an effect in about every thirtieth. At some point, you wonder if it's even worth the space on your fly-out bar.

[Nyoraii]

I communicate. That said, "Please AoE when fighting 3+ mobs, and focus the same mob as everyone else when attacking the remainder," tends to me met with the same silence or offhand crude comment as "Tank, the healer has been able to keep you alive thus far off a single Regen and a couple oGCDs, and our damage is plentiful. We should be safe to do full pulls. Do you mind if we try them?"

Yes, I have multiple macros for each. They see use in about every fourth run. They have an effect in about every thirtieth. At some point, you wonder if it's even worth the space on your fly-out bar.

If you really do communicate, then there is no problem, you did all you could and that's fine. But it's important to note that this approach is completely different than just taking conclusions by yourself, thinking you know more than the others and trying to do their job for them. That is arrogance (having or revealing an exaggerated sense of one's own importance or abilities).

[Shurrikhan]

If you really do communicate, then there is no problem, you did all you could and that's fine. But it's important to note that this approach is completely different than just taking conclusions by yourself, thinking you know more than the others and trying to do their job for them. That is arrogance (having or revealing an exaggerated sense of one's own importance or abilities).

I don't think it's completely different. You are either performing the task for the party or you are not. That you do or do not receive a response from the member in question, or that you may run into conflict with one member in attempting to benefit everyone else, doesn't change that. Their performance changes only what can at best be expected your given party, not whether or not you are allowed to perform to that estimate as a party.

If the majority of the party wants to go out of their way to slow the run, then perhaps one should just do that or leave and queue again later. But if the majority wants to run at a unfettered pace and that pace is possible except for the ego of the tank, then I would situationally encourage the party to pressure that end, even if it means going past the tank and pulling for them. "Tank, we're doing full pulls. Use your Sprint just before combat to double its duration, get in one AoE of threat on everything and then gather the further groups. Open with HG/LD/SB and trickle CDs from there and we'll deal with it."

[Nyoraii]

I don't think it's completely different. You are either performing the task for the party or you are not. That you do or do not receive a response from the member in question, or that you may run into conflict with one member in attempting to benefit everyone else, doesn't change that. Their performance changes only what can at best be expected your given party, not whether or not you are allowed to perform to that estimate as a party.

If the majority of the party wants to go out of their way to slow the run, then perhaps one should just do that or leave and queue again later. But if the majority wants to run at a unfettered pace and that pace is possible except for the ego of the tank, then I would situationally encourage the party to pressure that end, even if it means going past the tank and pulling for them. "Tank, we're doing full pulls. Use your Sprint just before combat to double its duration, get in one AoE of threat on everything and then gather the further groups. Open with HG/LD/SB and trickle CDs from there and we'll deal with it."

I 10000% disagree, couldn't disagree more. If your idea of playing with a team is like that "lets force others to play how we want and not even talk to them!", then I'd suggest you to not play in a team at all, this is the kind of behaviour that leads to grief and drama. Whereas if you only communicated (preferably with respect), maybe you could find some common ground and everyone would be happy.

Now if you really want to play like that, I'd suggest trying Trusts, I think they'd be more to your liking.

[Machka]

I think this boils down to one thing, as others have said before: DPS arrogance.

Nah, the problem here is clearly tank arrogance and entitlement. And I'm saying this as a tank, not a dps.

Many tanks in this thread are talking about how they take offense or feel disrespected when dps/healers do something other than the way they, as tanks, think dps/healers should. OP and many others are talking about how when that happens, they literally stop doing their job (that is, functioning as tanks). Comments supporting or relishing in that sort of behavior show that someone is either egocentric or that they lack of self-awareness. As others have pointed out, a tank that decides to stop tanking when they don't get there way is just as unacceptable and petty as a healer who stops healing or a dps who stops attacking. It's even more true now, since tanks have so much enmity generation (as well as 'unlimited' TP) that there is almost no excuse to NOT have aggro on everything within a gcd or two.

People running ahead of tanks and pulling things is generally suboptimal, yes. But that doesn't mean tanks should throw a tantrum and refuse to do their job just because it happens. Imagine if a dps decides to just not dps if a tank pulls a few seconds too early/late and ruins their opener/cooldown timing? Imagine if a healer decides to just not heal if a tank goes a bit too slow and lets a shield fall off. Neither is acceptable, right? We can all agree that those people are kind of being divas unless they were trying for some 1% enrage push or speedrun, right? Well the situations I just described, where tanks inconvenience dps and healers, both happen all the time. People might grumble privately a bit, but you rarely, rarely see the kind of attitude/stance that many tanks in this thread are taking towards minor inconveniences in casual content.

As people, yes everyone has a right to feel unhappy about things that upset them. But as players in a multiplayer game, how you feel is not the only thing that matters. To insist that other players need to cater to your feelings is entitlement at its finest. Playing a tank doesn't make you special. It doesn't make you king. You don't deserve extra respect for it. To think that it does is arrogance.

Tanks need to do their job just like everyone else is expected to. If you do it well, then maybe, just maybe, you'll earn others' respect.