Materia / secondary stats for ShB tanks?

[Dynia]

My friend and I have been testing this out.. I see tanks with the old pre 5.0 materia set up, with a lot of DH, DET, and CRIT. DET is always great for all jobs, but in our little test, we wanted to see if they improved TEN (cause it felt useless pre-5.0). He noticed quite a difference.. With the dps materia set up on tank (I am PLD, so I cannot say for DRK. GNB, or WAR- though it seems TEN does tie in with dmg now, combined with DET of course- which everyone should have), it gets annoying healing only when the tank decides to run and pull everything. I don't mind using all of my abilities- though at times this messes with little strategies I like to do during boss fights, but it gets to the point where I have to quickly go through all of my CD on healer, then stand there spamming that heal, hoping my CD hurry up lol.. This isn't fun at all, and never an issue pre-5.0, unless the tank was bad. I don't have much of this problem on WHM, but for SCH its quite annoying.. Not sure about AST since I will probably leave that at 70, because it bores me now.. So I went with more TEN, and my friend noticed I wasn't taking as much dmg as I was before, though the real nice thing to him was the fact that when he healed me, I got more of my health back, so it didn't feel like such a struggle and chore for him- and he didn't need to use ALL of his CD's just to keep me alive, and then not have them on the next big pull, or boss. I thought fights would take a bit longer, because I didn't have the dps materia set up on tank.. Nope this wasn't the case at all, even then tested it with the trust party (though you can't really do massive pulls, since they are slow lol). As a healer, I didn't care much for PIE at all, or SpS, but I notice a positive difference. In the past PIE only gave you more MP, but now it allows more MP to return to you in combat- It was nice.. Also if people aren't eating food, they are naughty.

good thing to know, I wanted try full TEN and DET for my pally alt

[Izsha]

Lots of anecdotes and not much actual testing being flung around this thread as facts. If you want to lean more about the current set of stats check out theory jerks website. They have the best testing with the largest datasets and worked out the exact breakpoints for each stat and are working through the job specific calculations as we speak. Only numbers, no anecdotes.

http://theoryjerks.akhmorning.com

[Resolute]

Lots of anecdotes and not much actual testing being flung around this thread as facts. If you want to lean more about the current set of stats check out theory jerks website. They have the best testing with the largest datasets and worked out the exact breakpoints for each stat and are working through the job specific calculations as we speak. Only numbers, no anecdotes.

http://theoryjerks.akhmorning.com

This is really interesting. Thanks! So, if I am reading this information correctly, DH does not seem anywhere near as good for tanks as CRIT. I just hit 80 and got my 430 GNB gear. I am currently sitting at 380 DH. If I were to put +40 DH in every slot, I would have 1100 DH. 1100 DH provides a 12% chance to DH, and does 1.03 dmg. For CRIT, I am sitting at 2272 crit without materia. Even without any materia, that gives me a 16.4% chance to crit, which does 51.4% bonus damage, with an expected dmg of 1.08.

For DET vs. TEN, DET obviously provides more damage, but not ludicrously so. My DET at 1603 provides a 1.049 damage multiplier. My TEN unmelded is at 1478, which provides a 1.033 damage multiplier and 0.967 damage mitigation %. I am assuming the damage mitigation percentage stat means I would be taking 96.7% of the damage (only 3.3 percent damage reduction)?

Even with all this information I am still at a loss as how to exactly prioritize though, as its hard for me to tell which options will give the most benefit. In SB as PLD, I just stacked DH as much as possible, as that seemed to be the prevailing suggestion. Now though, ignoring skill speed, and taking into account what as far as I can tell from the link you posted is pretty lackluster DH, especially since we start so low - maybe prioritize CRIT and then DET? It seems going TEN instead of DET may also be okay if you want a few extra percentage points of damage reduction (like seriously it seems like maybe 2-3% with what I can currently meld), but DET if you are just going for damage.

What do you guys think?

[Kleeya]

What do you guys think?

That i can already see in the future SE get rid of the materia system, and also give all different stuff of the same level the same stats. Because the so-called "choice" we have is an illusion if in the end everyone have to "choose" the same most optimized thing dictated by some theorycrafter.

And if you think i am joking, please think again of what hapened to role actions choices, or the possibility to choose main stats materias instead of secondary stats ones.

[Acesfool]

DH is not on any tank gear so forget that. Im a true tank, sks to get 5 castings off then all tenecity. I got 3208 right now. You all can be fake dps, i'll stay a tank.

The more I play my PLD the more I agree with this.

[Izsha]

This is really interesting. Thanks! So, if I am reading this information correctly, DH does not seem anywhere near as good for tanks as CRIT. I just hit 80 and got my 430 GNB gear. I am currently sitting at 380 DH. If I were to put +40 DH in every slot, I would have 1100 DH. 1100 DH provides a 12% chance to DH, and does 1.03 dmg. For CRIT, I am sitting at 2272 crit without materia. Even without any materia, that gives me a 16.4% chance to crit, which does 51.4% bonus damage, with an expected dmg of 1.08.

For DET vs. TEN, DET obviously provides more damage, but not ludicrously so. My DET at 1603 provides a 1.049 damage multiplier. My TEN unmelded is at 1478, which provides a 1.033 damage multiplier and 0.967 damage mitigation %. I am assuming the damage mitigation percentage stat means I would be taking 96.7% of the damage (only 3.3 percent damage reduction)?

Even with all this information I am still at a loss as how to exactly prioritize though, as its hard for me to tell which options will give the most benefit. In SB as PLD, I just stacked DH as much as possible, as that seemed to be the prevailing suggestion. Now though, ignoring skill speed, and taking into account what as far as I can tell from the link you posted is pretty lackluster DH, especially since we start so low - maybe prioritize CRIT and then DET? It seems going TEN instead of DET may also be okay if you want a few extra percentage points of damage reduction (like seriously it seems like maybe 2-3% with what I can currently meld), but DET if you are just going for damage.

What do you guys think?

Not quite. Youre comparing your full gearset of crit vs only kelds of DH so of course 2k crit looks better than 1k DH. You need to compare the 3%damage fron melding DH vs crit using 2272 as your baseling. If your current crit is 8% increase, then 1.08 is your base. If you then meld a 1100 crit ans it only moves you to, say, 1.1 its only an increase if 1.85% (1.1/1.8=1.0185). Compare tgat to the 3% from melding DH 3%.

Dh is actually very strong right now. But you have to compare your total damage with your gear as your baseline then add the melds ti see what kinda damage return you get. So you have a crit heavy build, see what haopens to that build adding more crit, then again with more det, then again with more DH. For example say your gear adds 8% from crit, 5% from det then you take 1.05*1.08 to get your total damage. Then you add the extra from nelds. Say 1 03 from dh and get your total. Then do the same but uncrease crit. If you want to be real fancy math it up with a different gearset, say one focused on det and repeat.

This way you find out what the best set of stats is for the largest increase in damage is.

The caveats being raid buffs (crit raid bfffs make crit better) and job specific tweaks. Wars get less benefit from dh. Pld magic rotation is annafected by skill speed, etc.

But thats the gist of how you figure out the stats. The stat you should meld depends on how muchnof other stats you already have. But DH should be very strong for pld/drk for now and terribad on war.

[Blazinhart]

So, melding a bit of Sks to get to 2.4 gcd, then meld TEN where it's possible, would be a "safe" and "confortable" meld? My idea is to help Healers not to struggle so much, and having a little bit of mitigation on the side. So is it a good meld?

[Dotsalot]

Since leveling up kind of does a "soft reset" on secondary scaling, the value of crit currently is diminished because you can't stack enough of it currently to beat out other secondaries.

From what I understand, in general it's Sks until you reach a certain threshold/comfort > Dhit > Det > Crit > More SkS > Ten.
For WAR it's Det > Comfy SkS > Crit > Ten. This is because Dhit is greatly devalued on them due to getting automatic direct hits where the majority of their damage come froms, Dhit only increases direct hit chance and not damage.

The info was taken from The Balance discord.

If im not mistaken Crit and Det are valued equally for warrior that is. Sks should be around 1500-1800 for your comfort values. Dhit is basically useless cause of our inner release windows and infuriates. Higher crit values i found more efficient then det. Thats just off my sims and practicing.

[Nedkel]

Getting all materia DH would give me 0.2% dps boost on my DRK.

Its completely useless for someone who is playing all 4 tanks.

[Malmstrom]

DH is not on any tank gear so forget that. Im a true tank, sks to get 5 castings off then all tenecity. I got 3208 right now. You all can be fake dps, i'll stay a tank.

I like this guy.

But for me instead of skillspeed to 5 hits, it's "TENACITY DOESN'T FIT? ADD MORE SKILLSPEED FOR MORE FASTNESS!"