Need a Hall of Veteran for skip potion players.

[CazzT]

I think more people learn to play thier class or a dungeouns mechanics from failing Other come to the game and simply do one class so they can do thier Crafter and Gathering classes instead yet others want to do every class/job combo it's a mixed bag but it is NOT our place to force someone to do something they either want to do it and thus practice at it or they dont and will continue to fail.

Most people learn by actually doing, and if you're lying dead on the dungeon floor (which is a result of failing), you're not going to be doing much of anything.
But you're absolutely right. No one should be forced to not cause the group to wipe, to not be horrible at the job they're playing.

Why are you defending laziness and lack of even the slightest amount of effort?

[NessaWyvern]

I had back to back dungeons where people didn't play their class properly.
I had a SAM never use an AoE rotation for mobs, and a healer that only used physick, and never healed anyone but the tank. And also spammed physick on the tank while the tank was at full HP. As a sch main, I died inside. I asked both of them nicely about it, and tried to give friendly pointers, but they never said a word through the whole thing. :/

I do think that there should be some kind of class specialised duty that you have to pass, that has a bit of teeth, so players are forced to actually learn their class, because leaving players to their own devices doesn't seem to be working.

[kidalutz]

Most people learn by actually doing, and if you're lying dead on the dungeon floor (which is a result of failing), you're not going to be doing much of anything.
But you're absolutely right. No one should be forced to not cause the group to wipe, to not be horrible at the job they're playing.

Why are you defending laziness and lack of even the slightest amount of effort?

I'm not saying they shouldnt put in the effort I saying you force it on one group of people everyones forced to do it as well.

And I think from the level of complaints about the MSQ unskippable cut scenes that everyone being forced to do the thing will wind up plastering dozens of ranting threads.

[Evergrey]

Why not add some new content in the form of solo mini dungeons.
Kinda like the Deep Dungeons. People can solo those but not sure how often people actually try this.
Or just do a solo only version of those two.
Add in some flashy new titles, items, weapons & gear and I'm sure people would use them.
People do love flashy new toys.
And make it scale in difficulty with new mechanics each round so people would have to learn what to do to progress.

This will not solve the "must-do-before-other-stuff" question.
But I think that luring people with a carrot and not whipping them with a stick is a better approach.

And yes, I know that is basicly what Hall of Veteran is. A solo arena where NPCs teaches you how to do stuff.
But this wouldn't hold your hand by telling you what to do.
So in my opinion that would make it feel more like part of the game itself and not like a tutorial.
A lot of people tend to skip tutorials since they already know the basics anyway. Or so many think atleast.
And it would give the feeling of accomplishment once done, instead of "finally it's over" that a lot of tutorials can do.

[Insertcoins]

People actting like jump potions make people bad and we NEVER had bad players before make me lol. You're blind if you think that. And new cause where the hell have you been? Want to know how you end this? - points to Tales of a DF thread-. Thing has been there WAAAAAY longer then the scary jump pots. Read it. Prove I'm wrong. I DARE you. All the problems you THINK you have with pots were there before pots. The problem is NOT pots. The problem is people being lazy. And the pots did NOT cause that.

[Kaethra]

I had back to back dungeons where people didn't play their class properly.
I had a SAM never use an AoE rotation for mobs, and a healer that only used physick, and never healed anyone but the tank. And also spammed physick on the tank while the tank was at full HP. As a sch main, I died inside. I asked both of them nicely about it, and tried to give friendly pointers, but they never said a word through the whole thing. :/

I do think that there should be some kind of class specialised duty that you have to pass, that has a bit of teeth, so players are forced to actually learn their class, because leaving players to their own devices doesn't seem to be working.

Why didn't you take time to instruct them? Did you even offer?

You're responsible now for a healer only using Physick, and a Samurai who doesn't know a AOE rotation. By your own admission if you didn't try.

As players in a community we do have a responsibility to each other. If you didn't instruct these two players, then you're not doing me a favor or anyone else that has to group with them. You're just passing the buck. I mean many of us are glad to help these players out. But it'd be nice if you all helped too.

If you did offer, and they ignored you or got sassy. Then there's no helping them. They chose to play the way they did, and no tutorial will change that. They'll get through and revert. Or pay someone to play through it for them.

[Roda]

Why didn't you take time to instruct them? Did you even offer?

You're responsible now for a healer only using Physick, and a Samurai who doesn't know a AOE rotation. By your own admission if you didn't try.

As players in a community we do have a responsibility to each other. If you didn't instruct these two players, then you're not doing me a favor or anyone else that has to group with them. You're just passing the buck. I mean many of us are glad to help these players out. But it'd be nice if you all helped too.

If you did offer, and they ignored you or got sassy. Then there's no helping them. They chose to play the way they did, and no tutorial will change that. They'll get through and revert. Or pay someone to play through it for them.

I don't think it's the responsibility of strangers to have to read the tooltips of other strangers who won't bother doing it for themselves.

[Kaethra]

I don't think it's the responsibility of strangers to have to read the tooltips of other strangers who won't bother doing it for themselves.

I never suggested that. Then again its not SE's responsibility to explain them further either. I'm not god's gift to understanding complex rotation theory either but I get by, I'm sure others can understand them too.

Sometimes people need help applying their tools. That's where we come in.

[Destati]

The only circumstance I would fully accept this is if they had a way to differentiate new players from veterans who are playing on alts. No need to punish those who actually know what they're doing.

[Shurrikhan]

All of what you said, already exists. Those who need a refresher, go through earlier dungeons. At their leisure. When I took a break at the end of 4.0 and then came back at the tail end of 4.5. I had a dozen dungeons to learn, and about a year's worth of time out of practice. I literally picked up BLM, a class I hadn't touched since 2.0 and went right in.

I had no issue picking up the new Enochian mechanics and applying them to content I'd never seen before. I don't need a tutorial. I don't need any of what you suggested. I don't WANT to go through any of what you suggested. So you're going to have to make such content, Optional.

That means you do not see the desired effect.

I never suggested that Level Skip players be forced to go through these things. I merely suggested that the game should have these things available in the first place, because, at present... it doesn't, as made clear by the number of players at level 80, without having used a level skip, who still don't understand how to play the game.

I made absolutely no statement in what you've quoted on anything to do with Level Skip players. I simply disagreed directly and completely with your argument that

Nothing can be done to fix [bad play]. ...[B]ad players will always be bad players.

on the basis that little is being done now to teach players how to be decent at the game, but much could be done. (Much of it can be done, if fact, by simply reverting various contents' excessive nerfs, be they direct or through power creep.)

tl;dr: Prevalence of good play can be influenced by the design of a game. Whether one is good or bad at a game at a given point in time is not due purely to innate affinity or generalizable skill.