Need a Hall of Veteran for skip potion players.

[Kaethra]

Ok, and where in my post did I say this was exclusive to jump potions? With the accelerated leveling progress sub 70 it's completely likely new players never get the chance beforehand, and this is only going to get worse with each level cap increase.

Nothing can be done to fix it.

As I said, bad players will always be bad players. Its not lack of experience, its not lack of knowledge, its simply because they are looking to put in the least effort. There's no for fix that.

And any sort of tutorial, or refresher, or whatever... good players simply don't need it. And those that need a placebo effect can simply queue for lower dungeons and work their way up if 'they' choose.

[Shurrikhan]

Nothing can be done to fix it.

As I said, bad players will always be bad players. Its not lack of experience, its not lack of knowledge, its simply because they are looking to put in the least effort. There's no for fix that.

And any sort of tutorial, or refresher, or whatever... good players simply don't need it. And those that need a placebo effect can simply queue for lower dungeons and work their way up if 'they' choose.

Except, plenty can be done.

Mechanical checks you can't simply flail through. Learning opportunities you can't be carried through instead. Essential toolkit components being added earlier in the game. Core mechanics appearing earlier in the game. A better difficulty curve that gives you something new to master in reasonable steps but actually requires something approaching mastery by the time you move on or add something more. Integrated 'soft' tutorials. Guildhests actually being worthwhile. Trusts and Squadron AI being smart enough a new player can actually learn from them. The list goes on.

[Kaethra]

Except, plenty can be done.

All of what you said, already exists. Those who need a refresher, go through earlier dungeons. At their leisure. When I took a break at the end of 4.0 and then came back at the tail end of 4.5. I had a dozen dungeons to learn, and about a year's worth of time out of practice. I literally picked up BLM, a class I hadn't touched since 2.0 and went right in.

I had no issue picking up the new Enochian mechanics and applying them to content I'd never seen before. I don't need a tutorial. I don't need a any of what you suggested. I don't WANT to go through any of what you suggested. So you're going to have to make such content, Optional.

That means you do not see the desired effect.

Good players like me do not need such things. We can jump in wherever and do fine. We can learn things on the fly.

The bad players that you want to make not-bad, will skip the content you suggest too. And will be still bad. You can't make bad players not-bad. That's an impossibility. Even if you made it mandatory. They'll slug through it, and then go back to being bad once they've got you in their group. Because they'll let YOU carry them. And if they're bad enough that they can't get it done, they'll get someone else to do it for them.

You only have two options when it comes to these players. Pick up their slack, or vote kick them and get someone else. Adding anything else, doesn't change that. It just adds extra steps.

But everyone knows this. Lets not hide the true agenda of some of you. Some of you are simply want to see those who skip have 'some' work. They're not sitting through cutscenes, they're not doing fetch quests. This irks some people. So they want to see them have to do something. Something akin to fairness. And I cannot get on board with that. Such line of thinking is under my beliefs immoral, as it contains jealousy and envy. I can't abide that. I'll never get behind that. I'm only hoping that some of you have naivety to blame for such a position. Cause then hopefully a simple discussion will yield results and show that all these little obstacles won't help in the end.

Many of you know I'm correct on this. There's not a single player who skipped who's a good player that struggles with any of the duty finder content. Nothing in the DF is hard enough for the decent player to work through and whether they skip or not is irrelevant. While the same cannot be said of bad players. They're bad because they simply just do not wish to bother. Some of these skip, some don't. The ones who don't are not better for it. We all saw this before skipping was an option.

So lets get away from adding steps to people who purchased a skip. They skipped to play with friends. To get to be with the rest of us great players. Let them be. I promise you the good ones (which there are many), are not hurting you.

[Shurrikhan]

All of what you said, already exists. Those who need a refresher, go through earlier dungeons. At their leisure. When I took a break at the end of 4.0 and then came back at the tail end of 4.5. I had a dozen dungeons to learn, and about a year's worth of time out of practice. I literally picked up BLM, a class I hadn't touched since 2.0 and went right in.

I had no issue picking up the new Enochian mechanics and applying them to content I'd never seen before. I don't need a tutorial. I don't need any of what you suggested. I don't WANT to go through any of what you suggested. So you're going to have to make such content, Optional.

That means you do not see the desired effect.

I never suggested that Level Skip players be forced to go through these things. I merely suggested that the game should have these things available in the first place, because, at present... it doesn't, as made clear by the number of players at level 80, without having used a level skip, who still don't understand how to play the game.

I made absolutely no statement in what you've quoted on anything to do with Level Skip players. I simply disagreed directly and completely with your argument that

Nothing can be done to fix [bad play]. ...[B]ad players will always be bad players.

on the basis that little is being done now to teach players how to be decent at the game, but much could be done. (Much of it can be done, if fact, by simply reverting various contents' excessive nerfs, be they direct or through power creep.)

tl;dr: Prevalence of good play can be influenced by the design of a game. Whether one is good or bad at a game at a given point in time is not due purely to innate affinity or generalizable skill.

[xbahax92]

Nothing can be done to fix it.

As I said, bad players will always be bad players. Its not lack of experience, its not lack of knowledge, its simply because they are looking to put in the least effort. There's no for fix that.

And any sort of tutorial, or refresher, or whatever... good players simply don't need it. And those that need a placebo effect can simply queue for lower dungeons and work their way up if 'they' choose.

I dont know why you are so adamant about this. Yes bad players will still be bad. But even if there is a small % that will get better after "education" is a win (in my eyes).

Its nonsense to believe that 100% of bad players will stay bad players. Beside, not everyone knows about platforms such as discord to get information about proper Jobs, Rotations and Openers.
We need something in game to actually provide more information on jobs, mechanics, skill chains, status buffs/ debuffs and so on.
Why would I need to tell people to Google about their job instead of directing them to the Hall of Novice, which can be more fun instead of reading a wall of text.