Thoughts on PLD changes

[Jonnycbad]

Idk I don't like Atonement. It feels weird to use 3 disconnected GCDs back to back, 3 times in a row. For Requiescat and Holy Spirit it was fine but Atonement feels weird to me. Too spammy
It just feels like there's a pattern where SE demonstrates job growth by letting you repeat a strong attack multiple times in a row, like DRK's a delirium or WAR spamming fell cleaves. It's just meh to me. Feels repetitive.

[TheForce]

I personally avoid using clemency where possible, unless healer is really struggling with a big pull and I miss time a CD, and like ~15% hp and healer is spamming heals, or it's prog and healers are down, there is genuinely no other reason to use clemency and hp penalty on spirits within (stipulation does not belong on a tank), isn't really a reason.
Personally it feels disingenuous to the healers, who are there to heal and in harder content it can screw with their planned healing. Remember if you do die it's just a game go back to the start or get a raise, just let the healers to their thing and worry about doing dmg, longer you waste using clemency the more damage you take overall because you're not doing damage.

You're thinking about this too hard. Clemency is an incredible powerful tool, and when combined with req. the PLD becomes virtually invincible. To like, pride yourself on not using it is just putting yourself as a disadvantage as a PLD.

For me personally, unless I'm doing super high level content (ex/savage) or trying to meet strict DPS checks in other content, I use Clemency pretty regularly. I like staying near full health, it feels good, and allows me to play comfortably. And also, something you said really kinda bothered me: "Just let the healers do their thing and worry about doing dmg"....no....doing DPS for the sake of big numbers will always be secondary for a Tank. Tanks should first and foremost be worried about holding aggro and staying alive.

[Sqwall]

Yes PLD for me this expansion feels the most "right" as far as legacy job style, and feel of the rotation. Everything just...fits. I got play a little on my WAR and I can still say, it's still one of the best tanks. Albeit WAR reminded me MORE of FFXI warrior job in that it was chaotic and just insane damage, while still holding hate.

However, I did get to play on my DRK also and I don't agree with some of the hate it has been getting, but i'm not 80 yet on that job so maybe i'll see as to why it has received so much hate.

Only did the rotation on GNB to figure out if I like it, and I can say GNB is going to be what DRK was for me during HW. Sort of like a pick up job and won't get into it til later in the expansions life. Probably around 5.3 and start to love the class and wonder why I didn't play sooner.

[aodhan_ofinnegain]

Lmao no I'm not overthinking nor at a disadvantage if anything you're hindering a pull by using clemency regularly in group content, so, you spamming clemency while the healer is already healing you so now there is most likely over heal (wasted dps potential), healer is now on less mp, you're delaying mobs dying so your CDs run out, and now taking more dmg instead of killing the mobs...clemency is a prog tool nothing more.
Honestly it is insulting to healers when you clemency, let them do their job and heal, if you drop below half hp so what, the healer is allowed to maximise their own dps, while also having a load of oGCD heals when needed, which you'll waste because you can't trust your healer. Further you are really not doing your healer any favours, how is a healer supposed to learn to time their CDs if you're too busy doing their job for them.

[aodhan_ofinnegain]

Further, holding aggro is a non factor, seriously baffles me when tanks don't make use of their aggro toggles lol like if you have aggro issues now you shouldn't be tanking at all.
Staying alive is covered by CD management. HP values are what healers concern themselves with and judge when you need a heal and when you're fine without a heal, not you. Sure, if you have oGCD stuff like Equilibrium or Aurora why not, but wasting GCDs on healing is pointless unless it's ACTUALLY needed.

[Samuraijake]

bro...they got me hittin clemency while requiscat is up... my hp bar just jumps and it feels so good.... dah hell with dps

[VargasVermillion]

You definitely can break or cleave through a shield with the right weapon.

Most shields used in actual combat throughout history weren't made from large sheets of metal, but from wood that was often reinforced with leather binding and strategically placed small pieces of metal for greater strength. Shields made almost entirely of metal didn't really appear until much later and were much smaller in size and tended to be for tourney, ceremonial use or fencing like the buckler. The sheer weight and unwieldiness of a large metal shield pretty much excludes their practical use on the battlefield.

A weapon with enough weight and inertia behind it like a large axe, maul or a large heavy sword like the Dacian Falx would potentially be able to get through a shield or at least mess it up enough to render it fairly useless.
Historical records even mention how the Roman legions were thrown for a loop a bit because of certain weapons like the Francisca and the Dacian Falx being able to break through their shields and injure or kill the soldier, rendering their shield formations less effective.

Also, directly attacking the shield in an attempt to break it was a tactic that was actually used on the battlefield. In the instance of large shieldwall formations, the intent of directly attacking the shields is obvious, to break the through the formation. In foot combat, shields would sometimes be targeted in an attempt to hinder the enemy. Many shields were not actually just held but strapped to the body in some way, such as a forearm strap or shoulder strap. If you break your enemy's shield and render it virtually useless, that leaves them encumbered with a busted shield getting in the way of their movement, giving you an advantage that could be the difference between life or death.

You make some good points but I doubt it happened often enough for it to be done on the regular, shields are a mainstay up until plate armor was at it's best so naturally shields were still very effective, simply breaking a shield is not an easy task, Although it's interesting you mentioned the romans but left out pilums which adding to your point were primarily designed to hinder shields so go figure :P

[TheForce]

Lmao no I'm not overthinking nor at a disadvantage if anything you're hindering a pull by using clemency regularly in group content, so, you spamming clemency while the healer is already healing you so now there is most likely over heal (wasted dps potential), healer is now on less mp, you're delaying mobs dying so your CDs run out, and now taking more dmg instead of killing the mobs...clemency is a prog tool nothing more.
Honestly it is insulting to healers when you clemency, let them do their job and heal, if you drop below half hp so what, the healer is allowed to maximise their own dps, while also having a load of oGCD heals when needed, which you'll waste because you can't trust your healer. Further you are really not doing your healer any favours, how is a healer supposed to learn to time their CDs if you're too busy doing their job for them.

This post just clearly displays that you are indeed overthinking this, lol. Me popping Clemency instead of DPS'ing for that split second is going to have such a negligible effect on the mob's up time that you wouldn't even notice any difference, especially as a Tank. It's not like I'm sitting there spamming Clemency and doing nothing else, however, I'm not afraid to use it here and there. If anything, the adds would probably be up 1-2 secs more. I can't believe you're really trying to make the argument that by using Clemency I'll actually be at a bigger disadvantage than if I hadn't used it.

I crit ~37k hp on a normal clemency and ~57k hp on a req clemency. The final stragglers of a mob probably wouldn't even hit me for over 15k in 1-2 secs. And alright, if you're comfortable playing recklessly and flirting with death by sitting at low hp when you have the choice to heal yourself, then more power to ya! However, just know that if you get unlucky and end up dying, it is your fault, and in that instance you will have let your grouo down. "Disrespecting the healer"? Dude come on, it's really not that deep! Loosen up Paladin!

[Sqwall]

This is honestly absurd about clemency. I can say that after a dungeon run today as the healer just DPS'ed the entire time. Just nothing but Holy Spam and I would get down to 20k HP. If I see a WHM spamming Holy and i'm that low I can expect a Benne at some point. But 25k HP? If I have to burn a CD because a healer just wants to NOT heal then they should have rolled a DPS.

I proceeded to Clemency away, and not just one. I went insta cast requeiscat clemency spam. poof! Full HP in like 5 seconds. AND THEY GOT ANGRY! Saying "I got you, just DPS and let's get this over with." I told them you can just keep using Holy since I can really heal myself during trash. And they said "I'm the healer let me heal!" I said" Would you please then so I don't have to?" He left without saying anything and soon the whole group since healers are harder to find then tanks.

Is this the new style of healing? If it is then I suppose healers should get used to PLD throwing down mass quantities of Clemency for a slight DPS loss overall. What confuses me more is WAR's have nascent flash, and DRK has souleater, and GNB has aurora. Every tank has a heal in some manner, and i'm guessing that nobody is scowling over simple heals like that. PLD is the only tank with a massive direct heal, and we rightly should because we used to have cure 1 if some can remember. Now we have to be looked down on for a skill that is actually super helpful and synergies with requeiscat?

Thoughts?

[TheForce]

This is honestly absurd about clemency. I can say that after a dungeon run today as the healer just DPS'ed the entire time. Just nothing but Holy Spam and I would get down to 20k HP. If I see a WHM spamming Holy and i'm that low I can expect a Benne at some point. But 25k HP? If I have to burn a CD because a healer just wants to NOT heal then they should have rolled a DPS.

I proceeded to Clemency away, and not just one. I went insta cast requeiscat clemency spam. poof! Full HP in like 5 seconds. AND THEY GOT ANGRY! Saying "I got you, just DPS and let's get this over with." I told them you can just keep using Holy since I can really heal myself during trash. And they said "I'm the healer let me heal!" I said" Would you please then so I don't have to?" He left without saying anything and soon the whole group since healers are harder to find then tanks.

Is this the new style of healing? If it is then I suppose healers should get used to PLD throwing down mass quantities of Clemency for a slight DPS loss overall. What confuses me more is WAR's have nascent flash, and DRK has souleater, and GNB has aurora. Every tank has a heal in some manner, and i'm guessing that nobody is scowling over simple heals like that. PLD is the only tank with a massive direct heal, and we rightly should because we used to have cure 1 if some can remember. Now we have to be looked down on for a skill that is actually super helpful and synergies with requeiscat?

Thoughts?

Wow, that guy sounds horrible. Honestly, if I was you Sqwall I would've just ignored him and kept doing my thing. If someone's isn't truly harming the group and preventing progression, one should not try and dictate how they play. Even then, some light pointers is really all that's needed.