Something about the new Ascian lore

[Tharne]

But as the quests told us, she was summoned with that power. Why would people summon someone with that, if it was not intended to be that way? Maybe they knew that they cant defeat Zodiark like that thus let Hydealyn split him up. And maybe those ancients ones saw that they have created the worst of the calamity thanks to their use of creation magic, a magic that can take on another form just by being not 100% concentrated when doing it..And they knew that this might happen again and at the same time did not want future people to suffer for this. Thus they saw the decrease of the power as the only way to stop all of this. (And would have succeeded if three Ascians did not somehow escape all of that) We do not know if Hydaelyn shattering the world truly killed everyone. How would life even start again if that was the case?

Zodiark being created with the power to create is somehow evil when he does the thing he's suppose to do BUT Hydaelyn being created with the power to fracture is somehow good when she does the thing she's suppose to do. Okay...
If I take you and fracture you into 14 with every one of those being only a fraction of the Original you, you're not you anymore hence you died.
You can't say that fracturing people into 14 isn't killing and then say that rejoining those people is. That's completely a double standard.

[Gaethan_Tessula]

It was a bit unclear if Emet Selch and Ascians actually knew the cause of their calamity or not. Creation magic going into a vicious cycle seems to be PART of it, but I felt like they never quite got to admitting that maybe they started it to begin with.

Which leads to the fear that it could happen again, and the justification that only their civilization had the moral fiber to sacrifice what is needed to stop it.

Deeply flawed, obviously, on many levels, among them the Ascians perpetrating their tragedy unto 8 other worlds thus far, bonus change for the calamities on the Source and the near thing on the First.

In the end, it's likely a combination of hubris, grief, sunk cost fallacy, and maybe tempering.

[Kreyd]

"Good" and "evil" are probably the wrong terms to describe Zodiark and Hydaelyn, because they are too relative.

Like I said, I think that Zodiark was created with the purpose of bringing the world into its old state and, as an allmighty ruler, keep it like this forever.
So that was what he started to do. Ruling and stagnating the world. And probably the best way of doing so, was by tempering the people. This is totally fine, if you are on the "everything should for ever be as it was!" fraction. But for people who thought different and then just got tempered, this doesn't sound very nice.

Hydaelyn probably could temper us all and rule over the world too, but she doesn't, because it's not her purpose she was summoned with. She wasn't summoned to be a ruling goddess, because swaping one allmighty god that rules you, with another one, didn't make sense. She was summoned to "free" the world from Zodiarks reign and give people the chance of going their own paths again.

Rather, I think the core conceptual difference is something closer to this:

Zodiark: We will survive and prevail, by ANY means necessary.

Hydaelyn: We should treasure tomorrow over today or yesterday, even if this means stepping down or fading away.

This plays into the overall themes of Shadowbringers very well. Not sacrificing what we have now (Ryne) for what we once had (Minfillia). Letting the world move forward, rather than trying to keep it the way it is (Vauthry) or going back to the past (the Ascians). That there's a difference between giving up and letting go.

Good point, I didn't even recognize that. ^^"

All in all, Hydaelyn vs. Zodiark, us vs. the Ascians, is less "good" vs "evil". It's more like "one way" vs. "another other way". "Looking forward" vs. "Looking backwards"

Oh of course we still have our own will and personality. We are not truly the 14th member right now and maybe we wont ever be it. (Wrote it a bit bad there sry) But I do find it interesting that if we are the reincarnation of that person that we still hold fast to the same principles. Seemingly the 14th left because they did not agree with the plan, maybe just like us they might have even had one that did not need sacrifice. Maybe it would have united the people and give them hope thus stoping the creation of these monsters out of their fear. The 14th also might have had their hands in creating Hydaelyn but even if they did not, he/she might have been an inspiration for those that did.

I think this is pretty clear if you take in account what Seto and the one Aumarotan said. Seto stated, that our and Adberts souls are very much alike. Yet we are different persons, due to it's not the soul alone that defines one person. It's their memories, their experiences and their feelings that do. The soul is just something like a core, everything else is build around. And the one Aumarotan stated, that our souls are clearly the shards of one person he used to know.
So our and Arberts (and probably the souls of a lot of heroes over the shards and ages) are part of the souls of one Aumarotan, probably the 14th council member Emet-Selch saw in us for a brief Moment.

I think this is are also the reasons a lot of people (me included) started to feel for the Ascians, especially for Emet-Selch, especially in his last moment when he asks us to at least "remember that they were here" to "look at those who walked before" and that in a world where things would've turned out different, we could've been friends. Because probably...we were...

[Alleo]

The problem I have with Emet-Selche's logic is that he seems to think that if they got everyone back they would not just cause a repeat of the calamity that caused them to sacrifice to summon Zodiark. He also kept going on about how he did not want the tragedy of their people to repeat.

Also seemingly he only wants those back that sacrificed themselves to Zodiark but even more people lived on the planet at that time..or what about the ancient ones that survived it all, or even those that died with the calamity? Is SE trying to tell us that at the end only those 13 Ascian remained and those that summoned Hydaelyn? Because if that is the case then the solution with Zodiark was really bad anyway..if that is not the case why are those other Ancient ones not as important as those that sacrificed themselves? Because seemingly even if all had their whole soul back after all the rejoining (and I wonder if its even possible to fully awake Zodiark without the 13th shard or if its even possible to have a complete soul again) they would be sacrificed too to get the other ones back..so does he only care about his direct friends and family and not really their race itself?

And I fully agree with your point. What will stop them from doing the same thing again? Does Zodiark restrict them in that? But would the rest of the Ancient ones even want to live in a place that has such restrictions? Would they be fine with the destruction the Ascians had done? I mean there already were those that summoned Hydealyn..why does he believe that everything would be great and happy again...heck maybe thanks to all the calamities they need to cause to do the rejoining, the planet could be death too..and thus they would again need to sacrifice people to heal it..

Zodiark being created with the power to create is somehow evil when he does the thing he's suppose to do BUT Hydaelyn being created with the power to fracture is somehow good when she does the thing she's suppose to do. Okay...
If I take you and fracture you into 14 with every one of those being only a fraction of the Original you, you're not you anymore hence you died.
You can't say that fracturing people into 14 isn't killing and then say that rejoining those people is. That's completely a double standard.

Yes because endlessly being able to create something is not that good. We are told that just a slight moment of loss of concentration can lead to drastic changes in their creation. Heck Emet himself somehow gave one Amaurotine a sense of self. The creatures that spawned around them were created out of their fear. They heared a sound coming from the earth and then began to panic. How big is the chance that something like that would happen again? At least some of the remaining Amaurotines tought that it would be better to create a being that will split everything thus making it weaker than continuing with this needless sacrifice. We simply dont know if fracturing people kills them but we do know that rejoining does. Until we have the information that both is deathly we can only speculate on it.

[Tharne]

They heared a sound coming from the earth and then began to panic. How big is the chance that something like that would happen again? At least some of the remaining Amaurotines tought that it would be better to create a being that will split everything thus making it weaker than continuing with this needless sacrifice. We simply dont know if fracturing people kills them but we do know that rejoining does. Until we have the information that both is deathly we can only speculate on it.

It was said that the sound was "distorting all living things within earshot and also wrested control of their creation magicks". They weren't in control anymore. The chance of something like that happening again ? We can't really know for sure since we don't even know what was the source of this sound, but wasn't it stopped by the summoning of Zodiark ? Then he probably acts as a fail safe against that, even then they probably would have try to take measure to avoid such a thing to happen again.
I don't see any needless sacrifice with what they were going to do.
Emet explains that if Hydaelyn strikes you, it creates a clone in appearance but everything else is halved, are you still you then ? No, you are not, the Real Original You is no more, I equate that to killing yes.

[TankHunter678]

It was said that the sound was "distorting all living things within earshot and also wrested control of their creation magicks". They weren't in control anymore. The chance of something like that happening again ? We can't really know for sure since we don't even know what was the source of this sound, but wasn't it stopped by the summoning of Zodiark ? Then he probably acts as a fail safe against that, even then they probably would have try to take measure to avoid such a thing to happen again.
I don't see any needless sacrifice with what they were going to do.
Emet explains that if Hydaelyn strikes you, it creates a clone in appearance but everything else is halved, are you still you then ? No, you are not, the Real Original You is no more, I equate that to killing yes.

Except there was nothing to stop the original cause of the calamity from happening again. The very foundations of reality was breaking down, and that is not a natural occurrence unless something was damaging reality all this time. Which there was only one possible cause in that regard: The very creation magics they relied on and constantly used every day of their life by potentially billions of people.

Which would mean that while Zodiark used the vast amounts of creation magic he was summoned with to repair reality, if they continued to have him use creation magic on that scale then the calamity would repeat itself in short order. Faster with all the people brought back using their creation magic all the time as they tried to rebuild their lives. Leading to them again having to sacrifice half their population to repair the reality they were actively accidentally destroying ad creating a cycle of sacrifice until their souls were so degraded that it makes Hydaelyn splitting everyone the far more merciful and future granting method.

[Tharne]

Except there was nothing to stop the original cause of the calamity from happening again. The very foundations of reality was breaking down, and that is not a natural occurrence unless something was damaging reality all this time. Which there was only one possible cause in that regard: The very creation magics they relied on and constantly used every day of their life by potentially billions of people.

Which would mean that while Zodiark used the vast amounts of creation magic he was summoned with to repair reality, if they continued to have him use creation magic on that scale then the calamity would repeat itself in short order. Faster with all the people brought back using their creation magic all the time as they tried to rebuild their lives. Leading to them again having to sacrifice half their population to repair the reality they were actively accidentally destroying ad creating a cycle of sacrifice until their souls were so degraded that it makes Hydaelyn splitting everyone the far more merciful and future granting method.

That's a complete speculation on a lot of people's part that their use of creation magic caused the sound. We have no proof of that.

[TankHunter678]

That's a complete speculation on a lot of people's part that their use of creation magic caused the sound. We have no proof of that.

Aside from the fact that when they are using their creation magic even the slightest lapse in concentration leads to a completely different result. If they were trying to use their creation magic to solve an issue caused by someone else's mistake in concentration then what should have been a fix for what should of been a playful toy for children becomes a monstrosity that inspires fear leading to the creation magic of those trying to contain it creating more monsters as the fear breaks their concentration and their fear is manifested instead of the containment they intended.

Its very easy for a cascade effect to be started with such easy to use unchecked unlimited creation capabilities. If the creation magic itself is also damaging reality due to how it works then the cascading problem becomes worse. Not to mention that rumormongering causing fear could lead to what should of been a isolated problem in some far off city state becoming real right outside your door from errant thoughts cropping up during the regular use of creation magic.

[Tharne]

Aside from the fact that when they are using their creation magic even the slightest lapse in concentration leads to a completely different result. If they were trying to use their creation magic to solve an issue caused by someone else's mistake in concentration then what should have been a fix for what should of been a playful toy for children becomes a monstrosity that inspires fear leading to the creation magic of those trying to contain it creating more monsters as the fear breaks their concentration and their fear is manifested instead of the containment they intended.

Its very easy for a cascade effect to be started with such easy to use unchecked unlimited creation capabilities. If the creation magic itself is also damaging reality due to how it works then the cascading problem becomes worse. Not to mention that rumormongering causing fear could lead to what should of been a isolated problem in some far off city state becoming real right outside your door from errant thoughts cropping up during the regular use of creation magic.

They are born with the ability to use creation magick, they chose when to create something, you don't lose control of your legs all of a sudden and I'm pretty sure they had experience with children learning to use those powers and weird stuff happening from time to time, it's not like they're new at this.
And also if they are born with it, what kind of a sick joke is it if they can't use something natural to them ? 'Sorry fam, you're breathing to much, I have decided to cause a Calamity.' - The Planet. (Y'shtola even said that because they have a huge amount of aether their creation magick doesn't affect the aether from the land)
The Sound was affecting creatures already alive and transforming them, that's not their creation magick's doing, and it wrested control of their abitily to use their magick, they weren't in command anymore.

[Daralii]

They are born with the ability to use creation magick, they chose when to create something, you don't lose control of your legs all of a sudden and I'm pretty sure they had experience with children learning to use those powers and weird stuff happening from time to time, it's not like they're new at this.
And also if they are born with it, what kind of a sick joke is it if they can't use something natural to them ? 'Sorry fam, you're breathing to much, I have decided to cause a Calamity.' - The Planet. (Y'shtola even said that because they have a huge amount of aether their creation magick doesn't affect the aether from the land)
The Sound was affecting creatures already alive and transforming them, that's not their creation magick's doing, and it wrested control of their abitily to use their magick, they weren't in command anymore.

During the sidequest about their views on nonconformity, the one you're first sent to talk to mentions that even the slightest distraction during the creation process can alter the results. They were creating robes, they noticed a group of children running by, and as a result they got a bunch of child-sized robes that they had to desynthesize. If an attempt at a large-scale concept went wrong and created a cacophony from underground, any ongoing creation within the entire city could be radically altered by fear, and that fear could spread like a pandemic.