BLM QoL suggestion

[Numenor1379]

That is only true if you aren't overriding an existing Thunder DoT; i.e. if Thunder is already up then you cannot include the full DoT potency (if any at all) in its base potency.

The question is around the use of additional Thundercloud procs; i.e. beyond those necessary to maintain 100% Thunder uptime (or near enough to). As such, it is of no benefit to consider the DoT portion of Thunder / Thundercloud.

Even then you still have the 460pot initial hit, making it 184 PPS (basically an instant F4). IIRC, so long as you do not use the T4P to refresh the DoT when it has more than 12s(?) remaining it is a DPS gain to use.

[Acidblood]

Even then you still have the 460pot initial hit, making it 184 PPS (basically an instant F4). IIRC, so long as you do not use the T4P to refresh the DoT when it has more than 12s(?) remaining it is a DPS gain to use.

How do you get 460?

24s / 3 = 8 ticks * 40 = 320 + 70 = 390pot initial hit.

The original assertion is that:

As for Thundercloud procs, it's always a DPS gain to just use it as soon as it pops up, even if you're in AF. Well, presuming using it won't cause you to drop Enochian.

This is not true (as far as I can tell). Contextually Thundercloud is worth using, as you said, to refresh Thunder past a certain point, but if you already have 100% Thunder uptime (as per the rotation) then using additional TC procs is not worth it (unless I’m missing something) and thus they are wasted.

[Numenor1379]

How do you get 460?

24s / 3 = 8 ticks * 40 = 320 + 70 = 390pot initial hit.

The original assertion is that:


This is not true (as far as I can tell). Contextually Thundercloud is worth using, as you said, to refresh Thunder past a certain point, but if you already have 100% Thunder uptime (as per the rotation) then using additional TC procs is not worth it (unless I’m missing something) and thus they are wasted.

The 460 is the 390 of the full DoT potency added to the initial attack as that's how the Thundercould Proc works. You're thinking it's just a simple reapplication of the normal DoT, it is not.

[Rongway]

The 460 is the 390 of the full DoT potency added to the initial attack as that's how the Thundercould Proc works. You're thinking it's just a simple reapplication of the normal DoT, it is not.

You're double counting the initial potency. Only the DoT portion is actually added to the hit.

[Seraphor]

If you sit on a thundercloud proc, you're wasting any potential subsequent procs, and each one is a free 390 potency hit.
The only time you shouldn't be using it is if you're about to enter UI anyway, if you're about to be forced to move and thus lose dps output if you don't have an instant cast spell available, or if using it would cause you to drop enochian.

[Casino]

Look like an old debate... It is said T3 worth it if 15 secondes or less of dot are remaining.


For my opinion the proc can never happen twice and you lose a tool for dps while moving. So i use it at its max potecy most of the time.

Using it too many time under astral fire can trap you and make forget enochian too.

[Acidblood]

If you sit on a thundercloud proc, you're wasting any potential subsequent procs,

True, but it's not worth taking a DPS loss just to use a proc. Which is precisely why the current system is flawed; i.e. TC procs are only useful IF they happen at the right time (or near enough beforehand), which puts their effective rate well below 10%... not that BLM is hurting for DPS, but it's never nice seeing several TC procs go to waste and then not being able to get one when it would be useful.

and each one is a free 390 potency hit.

Which is significantly lower than the 540 potency of a Fire IV in AF3, and since you are MP and time limited in AF, it is not worth the sacrifice.

The only time you shouldn't be using it is if you're about to enter UI anyway, if you're about to be forced to move and thus lose dps output if you don't have an instant cast spell available, or if using it would cause you to drop enochian.

As far as movement goes you are better off using Xenoglossy (unless you are about to use it for another purpose), or a Firestarter proc (432 potency in AF + AF refresh); it is better than Scathe though (anything is better than Scathe).

[Seraphor]

Which is significantly lower than the 540 potency of a Fire IV in AF3, and since you are MP and time limited in AF, it is not worth the sacrifice.

As I said, you shouldn't use it if it would cause you to drop Enochian , so the 'time limit' of Enochian isn't an issue, or rather it's one of the few exceptions that you shouldn't use it and can work around.
It costs no MP, so the MP limit for your Fire spells is a non-issue.
It's higher than any Ice spells, so for 0 MP it's nothing but a bonus.

[Acidblood]

As I said, you shouldn't use it if it would cause you to drop Enochian , so the 'time limit' of Enochian isn't an issue, or rather it's one of the few exceptions that you shouldn't use it and can work around.
It costs no MP, so the MP limit for your Fire spells is a non-issue.
It's higher than any Ice spells, so for 0 MP it's nothing but a bonus.

It's not (necessarily) about dropping Enochian, it's about only being able to fit so many spells into an AF window before you have to refresh it with Fire 1, and every Fire 1 costs you a Fire IV (in terms of MP). Thus, if you are spamming Thundercloud (i.e. beyond 1 per AF rotation) you are essentially swapping a Fire IV for a Fire 1 + Thundercloud, and that is a bad trade; 540 / 2.8s = 192 PPS vs. (324 + 390) / (2.5 + 2.5) = 142 PPS.

Additionally, by my calculations a standard rotation has an average active (i.e. excluding DoT) PPS of 162 with 1 Thunder III cast in UI and 1 well timed Thundercloud proc in AF, which results in 100% Thunder DoT uptime... and since Thundercloud only has an active PPS of 156 it is in fact a DPS loss to spam it (regardless of phase). Also interesting; if you ignore Thunder entirely it results in a rotation with a PPS of 172*; so a BLM ignoring Thunder would actually do more DPS than a BLM spamming only Thundercloud (156 + 13.3 = 169.3 PPS).

* Note: I do NOT advocate ignoring Thunder. For comparison a standard rotation including the Thunder DoT has a PPS of 175 with 1 well timed Thundercloud proc, and a PPS of 184 if you can manage 2 well timed Thundercloud procs.

[Taranok]

Agreed with AoE, Fire II feels really clunky, just a somewhat pointless filler to use your first two umbral hearts on before you can Flare.

As for Thundercloud procs, it's always a DPS gain to just use it as soon as it pops up, even if you're in AF. Well, presuming using it won't cause you to drop Enochian.

As far as I am aware, Fire II isn't even part of the aoe rotation post 68 regardless of how many umbral hearts you actually have, because its damage just flat out doesn't justify it. And then seriously find some way for Fire 2 to be relevant to AoE. I'd go so far as giving it the Freeze treatment of letting it be an AF/UI swap spell and nudging its potency up so that 3 targets actually makes it do more damage than fire 4 does, and maybe then I'd consider using it.

And a QoL change I'd really like to see is changing sharpcast to be a trait instead of a button. By the time you have sharpcast as a 30s cooldown, I personally always use it for fire 3 procs (less likely to happen, adds substantially more versatility to your DPS rotation), and having to push the oGCD just gets annoying on a class that really doesn't like pushing oGCDs for something with fundamentally 100% up time. I'd rather just see the first sharpcast at 54 give fire 1 a guaranteed chance to proc fire 3 either with or without an internal cooldown, and then make the level 74 version of sharpcast buff the proc rate of Thunder spells by an amount. 3-5% for thunder 3, 1-2% for thunder 4. Also take aspect mastery and throw it down to level 30 or 40, because that's a massive QoL improvement on BLM and it should not be relegated to a high-end skill.