Something about the new Ascian lore

[EdwinLi]

I wonder if Zodiark as a concept or creation existed prior to the Calamity and that they used this as a basis for the Primal Zodiark?

Not sure where Akademia Anyder fits in the Amaurotine timeline, but it looks like the statues there were before things were getting out of hand.



On a side note, I saw a staff that vaguely looked Ramuh's. There's also Zodiark's "halo" in that area/ museum.

From the dialogue in this dungeon and journals you find, it seems they are aware of the Calamity approaching but did not figure out what was the source of the Calamity thus they had already turned to using Summoning Zodiark as a solution since they are running out of time and no other solution has been found.

The final boss was basically the "testing" phase of the Summoning Magic that would later summon Zodiark.

Rather interesting how much this Optional Dungeon is related to the MSQ being the early stages of their Summoning Zodiark plans.

[Alleo]

The thing that gets me is the Ascian image when the WoD/WoL combines with Ardbert. Maybe I'm alone in wondering about Hythlodaeus's involvement with this. He was the only being other than the Wod/WoL that could even see Ardbert. Not even Emet-Selch is ever implied to have noticed this. Now, granted, even he believes that he is a slip-up in Emet-Selch's recreation. When you fully recover from the light, Emet-Selch sees multiple people. He sees yourself, Ardbert, and another unnamed, robed figure. I can't help but wonder about the involvement of Hythlodaeus with the warrior of light.

I think that was just him seeing our old form. With Ardbert we gained another part of the original complete soul and maybe in that short time Emet was then able to see who we were once. (And its hinted that we were friends with him) He does not want to believe that thus he throws away the possibility that we are his old friend and fights us. But maybe after all was done he realized the truth thus why he says the words to us. I dont think that Hythlodaeus had anything to do with it. I just think that NPC was there to point out that we are a special soul, that Ardbert is part of our soul and that we might even be the 14th member.

[CaesarCV]

I think that was just him seeing our old form. With Ardbert we gained another part of the original complete soul and maybe in that short time Emet was then able to see who we were once. (And its hinted that we were friends with him) He does not want to believe that thus he throws away the possibility that we are his old friend and fights us. But maybe after all was done he realized the truth thus why he says the words to us. I dont think that Hythlodaeus had anything to do with it. I just think that NPC was there to point out that we are a special soul, that Ardbert is part of our soul and that we might even be the 14th member.

I agree with all of this! It might also be notable to point out that Emet-Selch doesn't consider sundered people to be human. So he feels absolutely no guilt in killing them. But if you were a real person, especially one that he was implied to know and be friends with, suddenly he's actually killing someone. It's implied he saw a shade of the original Amaroutine soul due to the soul combination, which horrified him. However, for a man hardened by so much hardship and loneliness, he was able to push down those feelings and keep fighting.

That being said, I think ti's probably fair to say our character is more of a reincarnation of some Amaroutine (presumably the 14th counsel member due to conservation of detail.) As far as we understand our characters still have their own will and personality.

[Vexander]

On some level I couldn't help but wonder how the Ancients of Amaurot would feel about the state of the Star today. Most of the phantoms you interact with seem interested (almost obsessed) with new creations and such. Diversity. Their only real hang-up was anything that might be dangerous or, ultimately, detrimental. With all that in mind, if the Ancients could see the Reflections and the Source and the myriad different cultures and architectures and lifeforms, I can't help but think they'd be ecstatic.

[Berethos]

Which in my mind puts the plan to restore the world by sacrificing more Ancients to Zoidark and the plant to free the Ancient souls sacrificed to Zodiark by sacrificing more future souls to Zodiark in a very different light. All primals need aether. All primals want aether. The goal of people who have been tempered is to keep their primal supplied with aether.

That is the case with current primals...but isn't it suggested that this is a result of the relative lack of aether from the summoners of the shards/source when engaging in what turns out to be creation magic? The Ancients seem to have been capable of creating entities fully, with more powerful ones requiring more aether to complete...

But the constant need to feed on aether that we see in our primals seems to be a result of what is essentially an incomplete "concept" that is brought into creation. We don't have the innate aether needed to summon a creation the way they could (otherwise even their robes would be sucking aether from the land), and as such the creation (primal) is simply trying to complete the process using the aether it can find elsewhere...which is something the Ascians know and count on as part of their plans.

Zodiark and Hydaelyn also don't seem to be described as needing to continue to feed, but rather to need energy for specific purposes - summoning, fixing the world, etc.

So while it is entirely possible that Zodiark wouldn't return the souls in exchange for an equivalent amount of aether and simply enjoy the new meal, I'm not sure we can say that either work the same way as our primals, seeing as how the current use of the creation magics that are now known as primal summoning have some very specific shortcomings compared to the techniques employed by the Ancients.

[Kreyd]

I think to fully understand how Zodiark and Hydaelyn act and behave, we need to consider by whom and in which situation they were created.

We need to keep in mind, that primals are and do, what they were summoned for. Ramuh wanted to protect the forest, because he was summoned in the belief, that he is the warden of it. Leviathan wanted to cause floodwaves and sink ships, because that was it, what the sahagin thought he would (and should) do.

The monsters we fought in Aumarot were not an invasion of aliens or a long forgotten threat that somehow broke free. They were the manifastion of the Aumarotans fears, despairs and hopelessness, they experienced when their world was about to die.
Probably the same emotions they summoned Zodiark with. Zodiark was summoned by the council as the will of the planet, to stop an apocalypse. This alone already did cost half of the civilisations lifeforce. He needed another fourth of it to heal the planets wounds. Zodiarks only purpose was to redo the world into her state, before the apokalypse. He was summoned to be an allmighty god, leading an eternal civilisation of immortals.


There were some hints in the sidequests and dialogues with the Aumarotans, that a few of them had the idea, that an endless recreation of something that's already considered as perfect, will only lead to repeatness and stagnation, instead of giving birth to new and creative things. I think that it was this Idea, that gave some of them (possibly including the leaved 14th member of the council) the will to summon Hydaelyn.
That's why I think Hydaelyn isn't evil. She just can't. She wasn't summoned to do anything evil. While Zodiark was summoned by fear and despair, Hydaelyn was summoned by hope. She wasn't summoned to be a goddess or a leader. She was summoned to give the world, the people, the "imperfect" a chance to evolve, to eventually, even surpass the "perfect", maybe even surpass herself someday. Something Zodiark never would have allowed to happen.

[Gaethan_Tessula]

Indeed, the way Emet-Selch phrased it, Zodiark's actions were all in response to requests made by the Ancients. Even tempered, it was the summoners who directed Zodiark's major actions and sacrificed to Him to enable them. Beyond the needed sacrifices of lives/aether to accomplish His tasks, all we know Zodiark asked of the Ancients in return is their loyalty in ensuring His rule. Primals in general are not duplicitous, in fact they tend to be rather direct in trying to carry out the purpose for which they were created (Alexander trying to engineer his own destruction is the only example I can think of which might strain this paradigm). As conceptual entities, this actually makes a lot of sense.

I would be very disappointed if the story goes straight out "Zodiark 100% bad." I prefer the concept of an entity that will sincerely save the world and grant wishes, but at STEEP sacrifice.

Also, Zodiark likely expended much of the sacrificed aether in restoring the planet. Even with a favorable concept matchup of "weakens Zodiark" and probably the support of all non-Amaroutine people pre-sundering, I don't think Hydaelyn would have been able to successfully oppose Zodiark if He had 75% of the Amaroutine population's aether and She had a fraction of 25%.

I think to fully understand how Zodiark and Hydaelyn act and behave, we need to consider by whom and in which situation they were created.

...

That's why I think Hydaelyn isn't evil. She just can't. She wasn't summoned to do anything evil. While Zodiark was summoned by fear and despair, Hydaelyn was summoned by hope. She wasn't summoned to be a goddess or a leader. She was summoned to give the world, the people, the "imperfect" a chance to evolve, to eventually, even surpass the "perfect", maybe even surpass herself someday. Something Zodiark never would have allowed to happen.

A good point, though I think Zodiark, too, was summoned in part by hope. He WAS, in many ways, the hope of the Amaroutine people.

Rather, I think the core conceptual difference is something closer to this:

Zodiark: We will survive and prevail, by ANY means necessary.

Hydaelyn: We should treasure tomorrow over today or yesterday, even if this means stepping down or fading away.

This plays into the overall themes of Shadowbringers very well. Not sacrificing what we have now (Ryne) for what we once had (Minfillia). Letting the world move forward, rather than trying to keep it the way it is (Vauthry) or going back to the past (the Ascians). That there's a difference between giving up and letting go.

[Tharne]

That's why I think Hydaelyn isn't evil. She just can't. She wasn't summoned to do anything evil.

But she is, splitting (more like destroying since they lose everything that made their existence like appearance, memories, etc) every life forms (except for 3) into 14 isn't doing good.
People are quick to tell that the Ascians are killing billions with each Rejoining, Hydaelyn was the very first to do it with the Shattering. (No the first and second sacrifices to Zodiark don't count as killing since the people gave their lives willingly)

[Alleo]

That being said, I think ti's probably fair to say our character is more of a reincarnation of some Amaroutine (presumably the 14th counsel member due to conservation of detail.) As far as we understand our characters still have their own will and personality.

Oh of course we still have our own will and personality. We are not truly the 14th member right now and maybe we wont ever be it. (Wrote it a bit bad there sry) But I do find it interesting that if we are the reincarnation of that person that we still hold fast to the same principles. Seemingly the 14th left because they did not agree with the plan, maybe just like us they might have even had one that did not need sacrifice. Maybe it would have united the people and give them hope thus stoping the creation of these monsters out of their fear. The 14th also might have had their hands in creating Hydaelyn but even if they did not, he/she might have been an inspiration for those that did.

But she is, splitting (more like destroying since they lose everything that made their existence like appearance, memories, etc) every life forms (except for 3) into 14 isn't doing good.
People are quick to tell that the Ascians are killing billions with each Rejoining, Hydaelyn was the very first to do it with the Shattering. (No the first and second sacrifices to Zodiark don't count as killing since the people gave their lives willingly)

But as the quests told us, she was summoned with that power. Why would people summon someone with that, if it was not intended to be that way? Maybe they knew that they cant defeat Zodiark like that thus let Hydealyn split him up. And maybe those ancients ones saw that they have created the worst of the calamity thanks to their use of creation magic, a magic that can take on another form just by being not 100% concentrated when doing it..And they knew that this might happen again and at the same time did not want future people to suffer for this. Thus they saw the decrease of the power as the only way to stop all of this. (And would have succeeded if three Ascians did not somehow escape all of that) We do not know if Hydaelyn shattering the world truly killed everyone. How would life even start again if that was the case?

[TankHunter678]

The problem I have with Emet-Selche's logic is that he seems to think that if they got everyone back they would not just cause a repeat of the calamity that caused them to sacrifice to summon Zodiark. He also kept going on about how he did not want the tragedy of their people to repeat.

Based on what little is said on their creation magic they basically made something out of nothing whenever they used it. They warped the very rules of reality and messed with the foundation of the laws that govern it. That is going to cause lasting damage to reality and while reality can mend itself to some degree when millions or maybe billions of people are doing this constantly every single day all those fractures and breaks are going to build up. To the point where all it would take is a big enough hit and everything falls apart. Leading to the kind of calamity we saw shown to us.

If this was realized, and this was identified as the true cause of the calamity after Zodiark was summoned to mass repair reality... then the summoning of Hydaelyn would be to prevent the tragedy from being repeated. Better that no one have access to the power to warp reality and cause it to come crashing down then it is to endlessly repeat the tragedy. As once everyone was brought back that were offered to Zodiark they would get right back to using their creation magic constantly. Perhaps even to find new ways to get Zodiark the aether he desires.