Something about the new Ascian lore

[Kallera]

Emet- Selch was fighting for his world, where our characters were fighting for our own. His words and condemnation of the fleeting existences he sees before him are not without some bias—-he is seeing his own world warped and twisted into something that in his eyes will suffer forever, never reaching the height of his people...

And to him, Ascians are made throuh being like him uplifting other shards of the souls of his former people into the original article. But unlike other Ascians he has fashioned together, we take that final step into becoming his equal in spite of his actions, representing a conclusion never would have considered seeing again.

In the end, he wanted his people back. His people, who were so...advanced they had their own fragilities with the first war, the first calamity, the first primal. Perhaps it was too much for someone to admit that, for all of the advancements of his society, summoning beings such as Zodiark and Hydaelyn was the moment their feats of creation magic had grown out of their control. It wouldn’t surprise me if said creation magic may have been the cause of the carnage that put their world in jeopardy, much like how in our world people still debate over man’s involvement in global warming.

[Zackneifein]

If the theory that say the 14th member is the original holder of the soul of the WoL.
It could make sense that they have a similar persona.

And the conflict between the him/her and the other members of the Amarautine Council could be mirrored with the conflict between the WoL and some of his greatest ennemies that were manipulate by the Ascians.

The 13 members wanted Zodiark to be the supreme power able to resolve all their problem with his supreme might.
Gaius wanted to be the supreme leader able to resolve all Eorzea problems with his might and Ultima Arma, and it's mostly the same for Thordan VII being the supreme deity. Zenos is the only exception, probably because he is independant from the influences of the Ascian.

The irony is that to defeat the might of Gaius, Thordan VII... or Zodiark, it take the supreme might of the WoL... or Hydaelyn.
The difference is that the WoL inspire hope, along with their companions (everything about the WoL becoming a legend with unyielding spirit), where the others wanted to inspire fear.

If the Terminus is due (totally or partially) to the misuse of Creation Magic, fighting it back and giving hope to the others by doing it could have been a viable solution (where Amarautine people's where mostly apathetic in face of the Terminus).

[Elexander]

Not entirely related to the main topic, but food for thought nonetheless:

They keep saying they gave existence to the will of the star - the will of their world - and that became Zodiark. But have they even thought that manifesting the will of a sick, dying star would most likely bring about a being that represents that state of life?

Zodiark is darkness, and for a while I thought he might not be the bad guy we all are led to believe. But the more I know about him, the more I notice the Ascians are only sided with it because they're tempered, as everything Terminus (meaning in this use "from the End of something in space and/or time") in Amaurot screamed "Zodiark" to me. That's what I believe they summoned, in the end: something attuned to the end of the world, willing to stop it in demand of greater and greater sacrifices. It's like appeasing a bloodthristy deity with gradual death, rather than the entire world at once.

My point is, in the end, did Zodiark really "save" the world from dying or was it all just his doing from the very first, halted for his own amusement? We can't really ask that the Ascians, considering they're eternally enthralled to it's will and their response will most likely be influenced by that.

[Zackneifein]

It could be possible.
But during the last Dungeon, the voice who is not Emet-Selch talk about the "hubris" of Ancient People that mostly caused the Terminus. I don't see it being only caused by Zodiark or any other being.

[dragoelete]

honestly im seeing a lot of flashbacks to ffvii in SHB the end of the amaurotines reminds me a lot of the end of the ancients in gaia (ffvii worlds name). the ancients in ffvii ended up dieing off when jenova ended up crash landing on gaia in the form of a metor. the impact caused the world to scream in pain and the hatred exuding off of jenova cause the world to scream in fear. which caused the ancients to go insane. there are also a lot of things the ancients share with the amuarotines the ancients were able to use magic to make plants grow and bring life to others the amaurotines could use magic to create life. both of them also had a strong enough connection to the planet that they could hear the planets pain. which in the end lead to a calamity of their people in the ancients case because they were driven by the world to attack jenova which killed them off. and in the amaurotines case because the screams of the world drove them to fear which caused there magic to go berserk.

[Ilenya]

My point is, in the end, did Zodiark really "save" the world from dying or was it all just his doing from the very first, halted for his own amusement? We can't really ask that the Ascians, considering they're eternally enthralled to it's will and their response will most likely be influenced by that.

This would only work if Zodiark (As the will of the star) existed before Emet-Selch claimed they created him. What you are doing in the dungeon were steps leading up to Zodiark's creation, so they couldn't have been started by him because he didn't exist yet. From my understanding, Zodiark did exactly what they hoped. He was created, and stopped the Calamity. Now it's possible that there was a true will of the star before Zodiark (Terminus, maybe?) that was causing the Calamity, but there's nothing showing that is the case.

[ChaoticCrimson]

To put my thoughts into words, I think there's some pretty significant irony that a race that was so powerful and perfect, as Emet-Selch perpetually described it as, was still unable to forestall their own calamity, indeed may have even brought it upon themselves through misuse of their own creation magic. They sealed their own fates by trying to use that very magic to solve the problem, continuing their insistence to rely on it as they ended up creating two elder primals, which lead to a dramatic loss of life, a division among their people, and ultimately the Great Sundering that divided the world and the majority of its population into the several smaller shards we are familiar with in the present and their inhabitants. For all their bureaucracy and pragmatism, the people of Amaurot couldn't prevent all this from happening. Emet-Selch may have looked down upon the current people of the Source and shards, thinking them lesser, unworthy, and not even true life forms, yet it was the failure of his own people, and their own inherent flaws, that lead to the circumstances at hand.

Tragic though the Ascians' history may be, they cannot simply deny their own shortcomings that brought such tragedy upon them and expect that the people who came as a result of that will simply accept that they are truly inferior. When it comes down to it, it won't end up a matter of who's "right" and who's "wrong". It will become a matter of survival of the fittest who will inherit the future of the star. That said, I still can't condone the Ascians for what they've done to restore their world and people, but I can at least understand what drove them to such lengths.

[myahele]

I wonder if Zodiark as a concept or creation existed prior to the Calamity and that they used this as a basis for the Primal Zodiark?

Not sure where Akademia Anyder fits in the Amaurotine timeline, but it looks like the statues there were before things were getting out of hand.



On a side note, I saw a staff that vaguely looked Ramuh's. There's also Zodiark's "halo" in that area/ museum.

[Sakei]

The thing that gets me is the Ascian image when the WoD/WoL combines with Ardbert. Maybe I'm alone in wondering about Hythlodaeus's involvement with this. He was the only being other than the Wod/WoL that could even see Ardbert. Not even Emet-Selch is ever implied to have noticed this. Now, granted, even he believes that he is a slip-up in Emet-Selch's recreation. When you fully recover from the light, Emet-Selch sees multiple people. He sees yourself, Ardbert, and another unnamed, robed figure. I can't help but wonder about the involvement of Hythlodaeus with the warrior of light.

[Slatersev]

Hydaelyn being willing to completely snuff the Ascians from the pages of history by refusing to reveal their motives and what happened to them is what seals the deal for me. She simply cannot be trusted. She's a Primal. A false deity. A parasite to be cut out so that the reins of history can be firmly placed into the hands of man for better or for worse.

There is something fiercely ironic about using Vayne's quote here because in 12 itself, Vayne and Cid would have never had a chance in hell of putting history in mans hands without the help of Venat. One of those very gods who didnt agree with the others and worked against them to help mortals.

Which sounds quite similar to Hydaelyn's actions giving rise to worlds and mortals who fight against the Ascians.