If you thought the healer DPS debate would change with the change...

[ScarboroughFairy]

At this rate Id laugh if they potentially "lock" dps actions for healers when entering any dungeons. It would certainly put a stop to players trying to force healers to dps

The damage such a senseless idea would do to the game. You are no less extreme in your rhetoric than the very people you admonish for being toxic.

[Cylla]

The damage such a senseless idea would do to the game. You are no less extreme in your rhetoric than the very people you admonish for being toxic.

And yet, she's right. IF, and that a big if, we know it won't happen, but if it did, we'd see probably an increase of healers in DF because we wouldn't have to put up with the toxic behavior of other players throwing their "ideal" on to a healer.
We get it already. Some healers love to dps (to the point they tunnel vision the tank health... wipe incoming!), some focus on healing before dps, while some don't do any dps at all.
And I'm not saying that I support those who do stand around doing nothing, but I don't support this utter bs of bulling in DF dungeons.

No less, people fail to realize that this is all new content, new job changes, etc. We're getting used to these changes. WHM to me felt about the same, but AST with a tank that don't know how to use their abilities right, yeah, no, I've been more focused on keeping the tank alive then being able to DPS. AST mana still blows. We don't have the utilizes like WHM does to keep our mana at a comfortable spot.

This kind of topic shouldn't even be raising up at this moment, but it seems it is because the OP being bully into doing DPS when she's doing her job and focusing on heals before DPS. This is how it should be, yet some people believe it to be the other way around.

And let be honest, it dungeons. If DPS themselves can't pull their weight in a dungeon and NEED the healer to dps, I hope they aren't going to be applying for a raid group anytime soon.

[Melorie]

UAnd its not about overhealing. It's about the fact that you should not, for any reason, be trying to *force* a healer to dps. It should be up to them. They don't *need* to do anything but try their best to keep their team alive

Yet no one said you should prioritize DPS, just that it's very clear that there is room for DPS while healing and if you play as a healer you know that.

You think that people should stand waiting for others to get hit because you can't force someone to DPS? Yeah, no. I won't do that with my teammates. If you want to keep doing nothing - because it is a FACT that this is what you'll end up doing in a lot of content, even new content, fine. But it's not surprising that people would find this stance of you very lazy. If you want to help the party you'll do your best, and in FFXIV, do your best as a healer is not using interesting buffs, shields, debuffs on your downtime because we don't have it - it is DPSing, like it or not.

And yet, she's right. IF, and that a big if, we know it won't happen, but if it did, we'd see probably an increase of healers in DF because we wouldn't have to put up with the toxic behavior of other players throwing their "ideal" on to a healer.

I doubt it. After all, you would be stand by without doing nothing for minutes in at least any content that's not recent. Who wants to play a class like that?
If you're busy healing, it is quite clear. If you don't have MP, people can also see that. There will be always rude and arrogant people on DF, that doesn't justify supporting stupid ideas such as "lock dps buttons" unless you want to watch netflix while playing.

[Cylla]

Yet no one said you should prioritize DPS, just that it's very clear that there is room for DPS while healing and if you play as a healer you know that.

You think that people should stand waiting for others to get hit because you can't force someone to DPS? Yeah, no. I won't do that with my teammates. If you want to keep doing nothing - because it is a FACT that this is what you'll end up doing in a lot of content, even new content, fine. But it's not surprising that people would find this stance of you very lazy. If you want to help the party you'll do your best, and in FFXIV, do your best as a healer is not using interesting buffs, shields, debuffs on your downtime because we don't have it - it is DPSing, like it or not.



I doubt it. After all, you would be stand by without doing nothing for minutes in at least any content that's not recent.
If you're busy healing, it is quite clear. If you don't have MP, people can also see that. There will be always rude and arrogant people on DF, that doesn't justify supporting stupid ideas such as "lock dps buttons" unless you want to watch netflix while playing.

Hints I said, "big if". We know it not going to happen. My point is, people need to chill and stop bullying healers with their ideal of what a healer SHOULD be doing and let the healer do what they are SUPPOSE to be doing.
Like I said, I don't support a healer standing around not doing anything, but bullying a healer to dps is just as uncalled for.

There probably more to the OP story that we don't know, but I'm not going to dismiss that this kind of thing hasn't or is happening either. While I've been lucky and haven't had anyone whine or complain, it not to say someone else isn't getting the opposite somewhere else.

[ScarboroughFairy]

And yet, she's right. IF, and that a big if, we know it won't happen, but if it did, we'd see probably an increase of healers in DF because we wouldn't have to put up with the toxic behavior of other players throwing their "ideal" on to a healer.

I wouldn't go that far. There was an incident recently where a twitch streamer votekicked a WHM for spamcasting Holy on large pull in a dungeon with little to no damage being done to the tank. This pissed off a lot of Healers that tuned in because that Healer did nothing wrong. I would say that there's more people that share the sentiment that they should do more than just the bare minimum, but I have no objective way to back up this claim aside from that minor anecdote.

We get it already. Some healers love to dps (to the point they tunnel vision the tank health... wipe incoming!), some focus on healing before dps, while some don't do any dps at all.
And I'm not saying that I support those who do stand around doing nothing, but I don't support this utter bs of bulling in DF dungeons.

Neither do I support bullying, especially if the party is getting raked in a dungeon and the Healer doesn't have time to DPS because people can't stop standing in bad. You can't heal stupid after all.

And let be honest, it dungeons. If DPS themselves can't pull their weight in a dungeon and NEED the healer to dps, I hope they aren't going to be applying for a raid group anytime soon.

Gonna stop you here because it isn't about DPS not pulling their weight when it comes to DPSing. It's about being proactive and executing the Job to the best of your ability. The faster mobs die, the less time you have to focus on Healing in the first place. It's why we have, as Healers, DPS buttons as a part of our kit as damage dealing is, in itself, a form of healing.

[Cylla]

Gonna stop you here because it isn't about DPS not pulling their weight when it comes to DPSing. It's about being proactive and executing the Job to the best of your ability. The faster mobs die, the less time you have to focus on Healing in the first place. It's why we have, as Healers, DPS buttons as a part of our kit as damage dealing is, in itself, a form of healing.

Again, we don't know the whole story beyond what the OP posted here.
If she was focused on keeping up the group but yelled/told to dps when she didn't have the freedom to do so, there a problem and not with the healer. I'm not going to disagree and say that mobs won't die faster if the healer add in their own dps, but it should only be when they have the ability to do so. I've had times already where I "thought" I could dps only to find the tank eating dirt a few seconds later.

I don't know. I've gotten into pug runs where tanks seem to not know how to use their abilities right or dps standing in bad and making no effect to move. No joke, I had a DNC last night who was doing this. Things like this at the moment, keep me from doing dps as i'm having to spend mana in raising and keeping the tank up.

[ScarboroughFairy]

Again, we don't know the whole story beyond what the OP posted here.
If she was focused on keeping up the group but yelled/told to dps when she didn't have the freedom to do so, there a problem and not with the healer. I'm not going to disagree and say that mobs won't die faster if the healer add in their own dps, but it should only be when they have the ability to do so. I've had times already where I "thought" I could dps only to find the tank eating dirt a few seconds later.

I'm going to concede to your earlier point in a previous comment about people talking past each other to attack the extremes because I find there is very little we actually disagree on. To this end and in regards to the very comment I'm quoting, I agree. This is exactly why all of my previous comments aren't admonishing the OP because I don't have the full story. My contention is with those who insist idling is acceptable when they aren't healing.

[ForteNightshade]

And yet, she's right. IF, and that a big if, we know it won't happen, but if it did, we'd see probably an increase of healers in DF because we wouldn't have to put up with the toxic behavior of other players throwing their "ideal" on to a healer.

Every Roulette asking for Healer in Need would like a word with you about that. By just reducing healer DPS to three buttons, healers have become less popular than tanks. Should this linger beyond the initial hype, this will be the first time in over half a decade tanks are no longer the role in constant demand. And you somehow surmise locking out DPS completely in Duty content would bring in more healers? No. It would all but guarantee a mass exodus, and the new meta for Savage content to include five DPS and only one healer.

Raw intuition is worse than before and if you decide to cast it you will be unable to heal yourself with nascent flash, TBN got only 5% buff and you will use that one time or two it doesnt make any difference.

... Raw went from a Parry bonus to a flat 25% defensive ability on a 25 second cooldown. That is leaps and bounds superior in every facet. It sharing a CD with Nascent Flash matters little because they have different uses. The latter is intended for use while OTing—essentially providing Warrior with a TBN/Intervention equivalent. Raw is for when you're MTing. Speaking of TBN, an additional 5% of a tank's HP is much more potent. We're boasting six digits now. That is no small amount.

Old version of Raw intuition gave you 100% parry chance and if you mixed it with awaeness it was 20 second 18% damage decrease, now its 20% for 5 seconds. Also if things were bad enough, inner beast had another 20%. Warrior was way more tanky in tank stance before 5.0 hit than he is now, same with DRK.
DRK lost his giant sustain and did not get any low cooldown deffense ability at all.

Old Raw was on a 90s CD compared to 25s now. That is almost four times the usage for a CD you acknowledges is stronger. Seriously. And what? Warrior was more tanky before? They didn't even have a tank stance. Defiance only boosted their HP. Warrior literally got a 20% free defensive buff. While DRK did lose some of its HP sustain, you typically wanted to avoid Dark Arts Abyssal Drain because it was technically a DPS loss unless you were overcapping on MP.

As for Protect. The mitigation of it was so low, you often wouldn't even save a healing cast if memory serves. It had a purpose much in the same way food or materia does but it wasn't anything significant. Furthermore, tank stats as a whole accommodate some losses. Hence why tanks are often taking less damage now than during Stormblood's release. You have to consider prior to 5.0 tanks did not have a 25s 20% CD they essentially spam. That contributes significantly more than Protect ever did.

[Nedkel]

... Raw went from a Parry bonus to a flat 25% defensive ability on a 25 second cooldown. That is leaps and bounds superior in every facet. It sharing a CD with Nascent Flash matters little because they have different uses. The latter is intended for use while OTing—essentially providing Warrior with a TBN/Intervention equivalent. Raw is for when you're MTing. Speaking of TBN, an additional 5% of a tank's HP is much more potent. We're boasting six digits now. That is no small amount.

Old Raw was on a 90s CD compared to 25s now. That is almost four times the usage for a CD you acknowledges is stronger. Seriously. And what? Warrior was more tanky before? They didn't even have a tank stance. Defiance only boosted their HP. Warrior literally got a 20% free defensive buff. While DRK did lose some of its HP sustain, you typically wanted to avoid Dark Arts Abyssal Drain because it was technically a DPS loss unless you were overcapping on MP.

As for Protect. The mitigation of it was so low, you often wouldn't even save a healing cast if memory serves. It had a purpose much in the same way food or materia does but it wasn't anything significant. Furthermore, tank stats as a whole accommodate some losses. Hence why tanks are often taking less damage now than during Stormblood's release. You have to consider prior to 5.0 tanks did not have a 25s 20% CD they essentially spam. That contributes significantly more than Protect ever did.

Idk did you played tanks in stormblood for long, but anyone who did will tell you, they were a lot tankier in tank stance back then than they are now.

Raw intuition is trash now because it shares CD with Nascent flash, it wont be used in dungeons pulls maybe on bosses on tank buster mechanics, nothing more.

Warrior with 20% heal and HP bonus was able to hold wall-to-wall pull on his own without healer with IR damage windows, it was super strong, with convalescence ON he would heal himself to full with one steel cyclone on IR.

As i told you before protect bonus was entirely dependent on the amount of defensive stat you had, it was super small for dps and healers, but a significant buff for tanks
For tanks protect buff translated into 8-10% mitigation bonus for free and up all the time.

It takes today more healing than it was before.
I dont blame healers for not dpsing, because balance in dungeons changed by a ton towards healers.

[ForteNightshade]

Idk did you played tanks in stormblood for long, but anyone who did will tell you, they were a lot tankier in tank stance back then than they are now.

Raw intuition is trash now because it shares CD with Nascent flash, it wont be used in dungeons pulls maybe on bosses on tank buster mechanics, nothing more.

Warrior with 20% heal and HP bonus was able to hold wall-to-wall pull on his own without healer with IR damage windows, it was super strong, with convalescence ON he would heal himself to full with one steel cyclone on IR.

As i told you before protect bonus was entirely dependent on the amount of defensive stat you had, it was super small for dps and healers, but a significant buff for tanks
For tanks protect buff translated into 8-10% mitigation bonus for free and up all the time.

It takes today more healing than it was before.
I dont blame healers for not dpsing, because balance in dungeons changed by a ton towards healers.

Yes, actually. I tanked Savage and UcoB, albeit on a different account. How about you?

Curious you insist this given almost every tank main I know drooled at how strong Raw Intuition became. Did you even bother to read what I said? Nascent Flash isn't intended to be used when you're MTing. And saying it will only be used on tank busters. So? In what world is that a bad things? Warrior has options whereas before it straight up ignored Inner Beast because you barely even stayed in Defiance. Speaking of, I reiterate, yet again, Defiance did not provide you with any defense. Therefore, Warrior received a straight 20% buff. You keep ignoring this vital detail.

And that is HP sustainability not defensive mitigation. Regardless, each tank was compensated for that in some manner or another. All that changed is tanks can't solo dungeons anymore. At least not while mass pulling everything in sight. This doesn't make them squishier.

Which was, again, compensated by tanks having significantly higher HP and boosted defense. In Stormblood, the shortest CD outside TBN was Rampart—which had a 90s duration. Now each tank has one on demand every 25%. Considering it's more than double the strength of Protect, we're more than fine.

I can only speak anecdotally but I've found wall to wall pulls in Qitana Ravel, Malikah's Well and Mt. Gulg all easier than their Stormblood equivalent.