If you thought the healer DPS debate would change with the change...

[Kaoru_Nagisa]

Threads like these make me glad I have a static.

healers should be dpsing when they can or you are literally just being lazy, sorry to say

[Granyala]

Apart from that: never cast Cure (II) if you have a Lily except for content you don't know and you want to play it safe for progression matters. Using a Lily for movement is not always a gain! It only is if you'd actually use a whole GCD moving, otherwise move > Glare.

You get a lily every 30s. As such you have to spend a lily every 30s or waste Bloodlily uptime.

My MO is to keep 2 lilys on hand for emergencies and use one shortly before the 3rd is finished. That way I get maximum blood lily uptime and have 2 instant heals ready in case Dwarf hits fan. Whether I use a lily or CureII is more dependent on the urgency of the heal than DPS.
To be frank: I don't actively think "DPS max!" at all. I think "survival max". I always play it safe because that gives me more room to correct player error.

DPSing to me is purely a filler activity, the less I need to do it the better b/c it's braindead boring. As such I still want SE to beef up the encounters. ^^

[cougarel]

You get a lily every 30s. As such you have to spend a lily every 30s or waste Bloodlily uptime.

My MO is to keep 2 lilys on hand for emergencies and use one shortly before the 3rd is finished. That way I get maximum blood lily uptime and have 2 instant heals ready in case Dwarf hits fan. Whether I use a lily or CureII is more dependent on the urgency of the heal than DPS.
To be frank: I don't actively think "DPS max!" at all. I think "survival max". I always play it safe because that gives me more room to correct player error.

DPSing to me is purely a filler activity, the less I need to do it the better b/c it's braindead boring. As such I still want SE to beef up the encounters. ^^

Exactly, that's my MO as well and mindset when it comes down to it.

[AmeliaVerves]

To be frank: I don't actively think "DPS max!" at all. I think "survival max". I always play it safe because that gives me more room to correct for player error.

That's ofc totally fair and a valid way to play, even tho I personally picked up a different way for me, I still think it really doesn't matter in casual content (or even EX Primals since I consider these more casual content by now tbh). If you get through the Dungeon/Raid/whatever smoothly: well done, all of you won the game.

DPSing to me is purely a filler activity, the less I need to do it the better b/c it's braindead boring. As such I still want SE to beef up the encounters. ^^

Just adding something personal: I feel the complete opposite. Healing feels really boring for me so I push myself to utilize my tools to the fullest to get 90% dps uptime. It just feels rewarding to me seeing those enemies melting under my holy spam. hehe

[ForteNightshade]

Well since we are speaking in this thread, i assumed the discussion here lies down on if healers are able to DPS today without risking too much, getting oom during duty.

Most of my wipes were caused by healers who did not healed me in time, because they were busy to dps to not be called out lazy. Mobs in dungeons could land a solid burst damage if you pull wall to wall due to the fact a lot of them autoattacks and have instant cast abilities to use against a tank.
With 5.0 changes tank got chopped a ton of deffensives from them, first and foremost protect that was 10-15% buff to deffensive stats, parry, block nerfed, several CD's gone, DRK and WAR incredible healing capabilities gone (war got part of it back at lvl 76).
Dungeons are significantly harder for me as a tank, the same dungeons i used to do before 5.0.

This means healers have to focus on healing more because we are more squishy.
If DPS are NOT doing THEIR job properly then healer has to use most of them MP in order to keep tank alive today. Exception is White mage because his aoe spell stun mobs and thus contributes to the tank deffences.

... what? No they didn't. First and foremost, you grossly overestimate Protect. It was barely worth casting half the time. Regardless, every single tank now has a CD on a 25 second recast. The Blackest Night and Raw Intuition both became incredible. Warrior also had a direct defensive buff since Defiance only increased their HP total not their defense. If anything, tanks are less squishy nowadays, provided they are properly rotating CDs. Doma Castle was harder than anything Shadowbringers threw at me so far.

[Granyala]

Just adding something personal: I feel the complete opposite. Healing feels really boring for me so I push myself to utilize my tools to the fullest to get 90% dps uptime. It just feels rewarding to me seeing those enemies melting under my holy spam. hehe

Until you look at the actual numbers in FFLogs and see how little your DPS actually accounts for compared to competent DPS players.
They aren't melting b/c of our Holys. Looking at single target data from savage raids is even more depressing. ._.

90% DPS uptime sounds unrealistic unless you vastly outgear the encounter.

[AmeliaVerves]

Until you look at the actual numbers in FFLogs and see how little your DPS actually accounts for compared to competent DPS players.
They aren't melting b/c of our Holys. Looking at single target data from savage raids is even more depressing. ._.

90% DPS uptime sounds unrealistic unless you vastly outgear the encounter.

Uhm, a good Whm can compete with an above average dps regarding AoE damage in Dungeons. And last I checked my damage in Titania Ex was higher than of the tanks so.... idk, Whm is a lot of fun to play atm.



In the end it all comes down to: Do I, personally, care/find it engaging/find it fun enough to put the effort to get to that level of gameplay? And 'no' is a perfectly acceptable answer to that question imo. ^^

[Nedkel]

This game battle design is not built for pure healing. If you're struggling, and heals more than do DPS, that's okay. But at some point you can't just wait for people to get damage. If you do that, you're idling or overhealing, which means that you're not playing your job right.
If you still just want to wait till people get hit, accept that you're not doing your best with your job. If you want to simply do the best with your job, ok, but do not expect that other players will accept that.

That being said, no one ever asked me to dps even on my laziest runs, and I'm talking about follow-with-fairy-healing runs. Yeah there's a chance you get a person like that on DF every once in a while, but they're hardly the rule. It's a MMO so it's natural that you get angry/anxious/demanding people sometimes. Not a huge deal tbh.

You are wrong here, because main game developer himself said they design encounters specifically in mind of healer to not do any DPS at all, and they do not expect healers to dps.

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...ount-for-raids

And here
https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comme..._that_healers/

... what? No they didn't. First and foremost, you grossly overestimate Protect. It was barely worth casting half the time. Regardless, every single tank now has a CD on a 25 second recast. The Blackest Night and Raw Intuition both became incredible. Warrior also had a direct defensive buff since Defiance only increased their HP total not their defense. If anything, tanks are less squishy nowadays, provided they are properly rotating CDs. Doma Castle was harder than anything Shadowbringers threw at me so far.

Raw intuition is worse than before and if you decide to cast it you will be unable to heal yourself with nascent flash, TBN got only 5% buff and you will use that one time or two it doesnt make any difference.

Old version of Raw intuition gave you 100% parry chance and if you mixed it with awaeness it was 20 second 18% damage decrease, now its 20% for 5 seconds. Also if things were bad enough, inner beast had another 20%. Warrior was way more tanky in tank stance before 5.0 hit than he is now, same with DRK.
DRK lost his giant sustain and did not get any low cooldown deffense ability at all.

And no, protect had significant effect on damage received, it increased defense by certain % and those deffensive stats were a multiplier in formula. 10% defensive stat increase on same job and same lvl would translate into damage mitigation increased by 10% from deffense stat.
So for example your PLD receiving a 5k before defense and defense itself would reduce it by 3k down to 2k that means if a PLD have protect buff he will be able to mitigate not 3000 damage but 3300 / 3450 damage and reduce damage taken down to 1700 / 1550. The more mitigation your defense stat had the bigger impact protect had on your mitigation.

[Melorie]

You are wrong here, because main game developer himself said they design encounters specifically in mind of healer to not do any DPS at all, and they do not expect healers to dps.

Even if Square Enix doesn't take in account healer DPS for DPS checks, doesn't change the fact that there are fights in this game where I just need to keep regen up and use a OGCD heal on some tank buster/dps that took some damage. So yeah, at the end of the day, I still have tons of downtime in at least 90% of the content on this game, and I'm not a fantastic player, which means that really good players that push their job to the max have way more downtime than me.

So, they might not design battles with DPS in mind but give us healer a ton of downtime in which the only thing we can do is DPS. Which means that no, this game is not designed in a way for us, healers, to be pure-healers. Unless you want to AFK or stand idle waiting for someone to take damage.
Square Enix intentions doesn't really matter if the gameplay tells otherwise.

[IttyBitty]

You are wrong here, because main game developer himself said they design encounters specifically in mind of healer to not do any DPS at all, and they do not expect healers to dps.

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...ount-for-raids

And here
https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comme..._that_healers/

"We don't account for healer DPS when balancing battle content" =/= "the game is designed around healers doing nothing but healing". It means healer DPS is registered as zero when they are determining the group DPS required to down a fight. Thus healer DPS actually becomes more of a requirement to the playerbase because it's totally free to fill any shortfalls.

It doesn't matter what he *says* or whether he *believes* healers shouldn't be *expected* to DPS. What matters is the content we are given to play through. Healers are given ridiculous downtime in all tiers of content. Healing requirements have an upper limit, and the easier it is reached (eg via better gear), the more downtime you get. The only way to fill that downtime is via DPSing or standing around with your finger in your nose. One of these is more productive and considerate of your party's time than the other.

If he wants healers to not contribute DPS, then he needs to make drastic changes to the gameplay system itself.