If you thought the healer DPS debate would change with the change...

[ForteNightshade]

We should enforce DPS doing THEIR job instead.
If DPS were good enough there would be no need for healers to DPS. Them doing worse or better means much more than healers DPS alone.
I have seen far more bad dps than i do healers, thats why i dont run parse anymore to save me nerves when i see dps doing less dps than me a tank...

... Except, we do? In fact, DPS players are held more accountable in this regard than healers. After all, they don't have a built in excuse to play inefficiently. No one agrees DPS who refuse to AoE are still good damage dealers. They're widely acknowledged as lazy and more frequently called out for it. There was even a thread here roughly a year or so ago where a RDM whined about Scatter spamming because "it's boring. I didn't wait in queue for twenty minutes to spam one button."

Funny how the whole thread called them out on being lazy.

Healers? We have this nonsense—where yet, again, you have a group of players willfully neglecting their kit because they simply want to heal even when the game doesn't demand said healing. We then receive a myriad of excuses or deflective arguments ranging from MP conservation to "LOL I'll focus on DPS then and let you die."

When have tanks or DPS ever been able to say...

"I don't want to use my CDs!"
"I'm an Archer not a Bard, I shouldn't have to sing!"
"Why should I have to move out of AoEs? You should just heal!"

And they not swiftly be kicked and/or made a mockery out of? Exactly. Only healers have an excuse—one people have long grown tired of. No one is asking you pull 7,000 on WHM. If, on the other hand, you're pulling 0 despite the tank and DPS doing their part properly, you're simply leeching off their work.

[Nedkel]

...<snip>

The thing you did not catch on the thread is that OP is complaining about MP usage when he DPS and that if something get messed up he wont be able to heal or raise someone because of OOM, which is really a case in new content where mobs hits like mad and bosses have mechanics which 50% of people fail to execute or dodge.

I am far better with healer who heals and rarely push dps button than i do with healers who dps and just let me bite the mud. With good DPS and healer who keeps my heath bar above 60-70% i could pull everything in sight and make it still working.
But it just cant works if dps are so bad that it takes ages to kill the pull and we eventually wipe because healer and me used everything.

DPS average out at 10k DPS in dungeons, 20k DPS for both while healer is around 3-6k.

[ForteNightshade]

The thing you did not catch on the thread is that OP is complaining about MP usage when he DPS and that if something get messed up he wont be able to heal or raise someone because of OOM, which is really a case in new content where mobs hits like mad and bosses have mechanics which 50% of people fail to execute or dodge.

I am far better with healer who heals and rarely push dps button than i do with healers who dps and just let me bite the mud. With good DPS and healer who keeps my heath bar above 60-70% i could pull everything in sight and make it still working.
But it just cant works if dps are so bad that it takes ages to kill the pull and we eventually wipe because healer and me used everything.

DPS average out at 10k DPS in dungeons, 20k DPS for both while healer is around 3-6k.

... which implies poor MP management. Even the much maligned AST primarily suffers in huge pulls, and I would attribute that more towards how weak their healing kit. Regardless, I never quoted the OP. I quoted you. Why you're even mentioning the OP when my entire response focused on your shifting of the blame onto DPS, I don't know. At this point, you're simply Strawmanning.

As for mobs themselves. I have tanked every single dungeon and mass pulled each one of them. Most hit like wet noodles if you rotate CDs properly. There are a few dangerous pulls but I'd argue Stormblood had worse.

I would rather a healer who does both. Not a difficult require considering the dungeons don't hit very hard. That being said, I'm not going to scuff at a healer trying to juggle their heals and DPS. The effort alone is all I ask. Even just a couple Holy casts until you're more comfortable is something. It's the healers who barely even look at their DPS abilities or outright refuse to touch them I take umbrage with. As stated, no healer appreciates tanks who don't pop their cooldowns properly. Well, the feeling is mutual from tanks and DPS. We also do not appreciate being expected to use everything in our arsenal while you sit and watch Netflix.

Leeching off their work? Lets see how much work they get done without a healer keeping them on their feet. The healer is working to keep the party alive to complete the dungeon, it is the sole reason we are there. Without a healer the tank and DPS would not make it far.

I mean, if the tank and DPS have a CPM (Cast Per Minute) of 95-99% and the healer has 50%. What else would you call them? They literally contributed half the work yet received equal reward.

And I've tanked dungeons without a healer before. Prior to Shadowbringers, it was laughably easy given how much Warrior and Dark Knight healed for on a mass pull. With the current dungeons, you'd have to pull smaller but it's very doable. Nevertheless, we again circle back to why is it okay for healers to sit around waiting but isn't for tanks or DPS? If things have gone awry and they actually need to conserve MP because the DPS were dumb, then we have entirely different story. This isn't usually the case with these arguments though. More often than not, you have some healers who simply don't believe they should have to deal damage.

No joke, I actually had a WAR and a DRG duo the final boss of Akademia from about 75% when the healer got deleted. There's a certain brand of healers who like to have the "You can't do anything without me" mentality, and even as a healer myself, I know that's wrong. I am there to do one very simple job, as is everyone else. And that is to clear the instances as efficiently as I can. Which means doing more than just the basics of your class, regardless of role. To do otherwise is disrespectful to the other players in your group.

This happened when my BFF and I were leveling. We were saddled with a SCH who only Physick'd (I'm serious) and died repeatedly to the last boss of Holminster Switch. On our second (or was it third?) attempt, she and I wound up solo-ing him from 25%-ish when the SCH died yet again. She even lived the stack with just me because I tank LB2'd

Best part? The SCH got salty because I called them out for running away with the stack marker and killing themselves. Their excuse? "I took it south like a healer should." What?! Seriously. What?!

[ScarboroughFairy]

And I've tanked dungeons without a healer before. Prior to Shadowbringers, it was laughably easy given how much Warrior and Dark Knight healed for on a mass pull.

Ahh...that takes me back as an old career Tank. Wall-to-wall pulling and covering yourself in millions of mobs only to laugh in Blood Price+Abyssal Drain as a DRK or laugh in Inner Release+Steel Cyclone as WAR.

Healer: Heal. We don't need you to DPS. As soon as a party needs Healer DPS, their DPS and Tank suck monkey butts. With the DPS Buff to Tanks and the simplification of Skillsets everyone should be able to stick to their roles.

This is a poor hot take. When a Healer does damage, they're being a good Healer as long as they're concurrently keeping everyone alive. That doesn't mean the DPS and Tanks suck, it's triage. I take it you don't play a lick of Healer with this bad opinion.

[Nedkel]

... which implies poor MP management. Even the much maligned AST primarily suffers in huge pulls, and I would attribute that more towards how weak their healing kit. Regardless, I never quoted the OP. I quoted you. Why you're even mentioning the OP when my entire response focused on your shifting of the blame onto DPS, I don't know. At this point, you're simply Strawmanning.

As for mobs themselves. I have tanked every single dungeon and mass pulled each one of them. Most hit like wet noodles if you rotate CDs properly. There are a few dangerous pulls but I'd argue Stormblood had worse.

I would rather a healer who does both. Not a difficult require considering the dungeons don't hit very hard. That being said, I'm not going to scuff at a healer trying to juggle their heals and DPS. The effort alone is all I ask. Even just a couple Holy casts until you're more comfortable is something. It's the healers who barely even look at their DPS abilities or outright refuse to touch them I take umbrage with. As stated, no healer appreciates tanks who don't pop their cooldowns properly. Well, the feeling is mutual from tanks and DPS. We also do not appreciate being expected to use everything in our arsenal while you sit and watch Netflix.

Well since we are speaking in this thread, i assumed the discussion here lies down on if healers are able to DPS today without risking too much, getting oom during duty.

Most of my wipes were caused by healers who did not healed me in time, because they were busy to dps to not be called out lazy. Mobs in dungeons could land a solid burst damage if you pull wall to wall due to the fact a lot of them autoattacks and have instant cast abilities to use against a tank.
With 5.0 changes tank got chopped a ton of deffensives from them, first and foremost protect that was 10-15% buff to deffensive stats, parry, block nerfed, several CD's gone, DRK and WAR incredible healing capabilities gone (war got part of it back at lvl 76).
Dungeons are significantly harder for me as a tank, the same dungeons i used to do before 5.0.

This means healers have to focus on healing more because we are more squishy.
If DPS are NOT doing THEIR job properly then healer has to use most of them MP in order to keep tank alive today. Exception is White mage because his aoe spell stun mobs and thus contributes to the tank deffences.

At the end of the day the numbers and facts don't lie. If a WHM can put out 7k DPS while keeping the party alive with relative ease, then they're miles above healers that don't DPS. You can argue about playstyle and comfort zones all you want, but only you can do something about it because it's literally a case of "git gud".

You are missing on one important thing.
The moment healer get a really bad dps in their party is the moment where oGCD are not enough alone to keep tank alive, and because of that he has to burn a ton of MP to heal a tank.

[ForteNightshade]

Well since we are speaking in this thread, i assumed the discussion here lies down on if healers are able to DPS today without risking too much, getting oom during duty.

Most of my wipes were caused by healers who did not healed me in time, because they were busy to dps to not be called out lazy. Mobs in dungeons could land a solid burst damage if you pull wall to wall due to the fact a lot of them autoattacks and have instant cast abilities to use against a tank.
With 5.0 changes tank got chopped a ton of deffensives from them, first and foremost protect that was 10-15% buff to deffensive stats, parry, block nerfed, several CD's gone, DRK and WAR incredible healing capabilities gone (war got part of it back at lvl 76).
Dungeons are significantly harder for me as a tank, the same dungeons i used to do before 5.0.

This means healers have to focus on healing more because we are more squishy.
If DPS are NOT doing THEIR job properly then healer has to use most of them MP in order to keep tank alive today. Exception is White mage because his aoe spell stun mobs and thus contributes to the tank deffences.

... what? No they didn't. First and foremost, you grossly overestimate Protect. It was barely worth casting half the time. Regardless, every single tank now has a CD on a 25 second recast. The Blackest Night and Raw Intuition both became incredible. Warrior also had a direct defensive buff since Defiance only increased their HP total not their defense. If anything, tanks are less squishy nowadays, provided they are properly rotating CDs. Doma Castle was harder than anything Shadowbringers threw at me so far.

[Sebazy]

I am far better with healer who heals and rarely push dps button than i do with healers who dps and just let me bite the mud. With good DPS and healer who keeps my heath bar above 60-70% i could pull everything in sight and make it still working.

Plot Twist: On SCH I actually find huge wall to wall pulls easier on my MP.

Groups that are single pulling packs will usually have me running OOM after 3 packs or so and resorting to either single target nuking at best or simply standing still at worst. I really should make a recording of the difference as it's quite a stark contrast.

As far as damage numbers go. I've been pulling 8 to 9k+ dps in the expert dungeons with zero primal gear at the time. Once I actually stop being hilariously unlucky and my gear is sorted, I'm seriously thinking that I'll be able to hit 10k sustained for a dungeon with a little bit of planning.

[Bixillarla]

And they not swiftly be kicked and/or made a mockery out of? Exactly. Only healers have an excuse—one people have long grown tired of. No one is asking you pull 7,000 on WHM. If, on the other hand, you're pulling 0 despite the tank and DPS doing their part properly, you're simply leeching off their work.

Leeching off their work? Lets see how much work they get done without a healer keeping them on their feet. The healer is working to keep the party alive to complete the dungeon, it is the sole reason we are there. Without a healer the tank and DPS would not make it far.

[Alaray]

Leeching off their work? Lets see how much work they get done without a healer keeping them on their feet. The healer is working to keep the party alive to complete the dungeon, it is the sole reason we are there. Without a healer the tank and DPS would not make it far.

I've completed dungeons without healers.

You pull smaller, rotate cd's, DPS kill things. A healer expedites the process by allowing larger pulls, and contributing damage output in conjunction with it.

If you stand around idle at half MP with no outgoing damage, you're dead weight.

[Isala]

I've completed dungeons without healers.

You pull smaller, rotate cd's, DPS kill things. A healer expedites the process by allowing larger pulls, and contributing damage output in conjunction with it.

If you stand around idle at half MP with no outgoing damage, you're dead weight.

No joke, I actually had a WAR and a DRG duo the final boss of Akademia from about 75% when the healer got deleted. There's a certain brand of healers who like to have the "You can't do anything without me" mentality, and even as a healer myself, I know that's wrong. I am there to do one very simple job, as is everyone else. And that is to clear the instances as efficiently as I can. Which means doing more than just the basics of your class, regardless of role. To do otherwise is disrespectful to the other players in your group.