If you thought the healer DPS debate would change with the change...

[Alaray]

Other options c) disable damage abilities in raids/dungeons d) healing intensive boss fights so they actually have to heal and not play a subpar dps with healing capabilities.

While we're at it, turn off my ability to do damage as a tank. All I can use is mitigation and re-introduce flash. That's my role, after all. Just threat. :^)

[Riblet]

I was going to say that if I wanted a Healer that doesn't do DPS, I'd go with Trusts, but then I remembered that they do contribute damage. So I guess that makes Sylphies below the scripted AI.

[Enla]

Other options c) disable damage abilities in raids/dungeons d) healing intensive boss fights so they actually have to heal and not play a subpar dps with healing capabilities.

Also known as how to get many long time healer mains to quit their role or the game entirely. While also causing a healer drought that would make the 2.0 tank issues look mild by comparison. The latter is also a lazy bandaid fix because ilvl upgrades and people not being derpy in boss rooms always render the need for complete healer uptime as moot. You're never going to get that perfect balance without drastically changing the game at it's core, and at that point it's not just healers that will need changes but tanks and DPS as well.

[Nedkel]

We should enforce DPS doing THEIR job instead.
If DPS were good enough there would be no need for healers to DPS. Them doing worse or better means much more than healers DPS alone.
I have seen far more bad dps than i do healers, thats why i dont run parse anymore to save me nerves when i see dps doing a lot less dps than me a tank...

[ForteNightshade]

Y'all went ahead and had fun before I could chime in.

God this thread lol

No wonder nobody wants to be a healer

I suspect the sheer boredom and lack of significant chances contribute far more to the decline in healer interest—especially when you consider the devs prattled on and on about healer re-balance being their excuse for not implementing a fourth healer. Their attempt at balancing the three has proven laughable.

Ironically, they managed to anger both sides of the spectrum now. All the people squeeing over the belief "healers will be healers now!!!!" were rudely awoken to the same reality as before. You're still expected to DPS. It's just even more boring than it used to be. And the pro DPS side simply had their preferred playstyle neutered. Nobody won and no one is happy about it.

There's a good reason SCH and AST are listed as the most disliked jobs.

I once had a tank who would keep running around the room for no reason, walking out of my healing bubble, getting hit by ground aoe's, making me chase him to use holy and I had enough of it. So from then on, I was strictly healing. A few mobs later I was kicked and I subsequently reported. This tank received a suspension. I know this because of the level of vitriol directed at me on discord from their fellow raid members.

You just described someone who repeatedly griefed you throughout a dungeon run, and only kicked when you essentially "griefed" back. It is far more likely they were suspended for the aforementioned kicking.

The removal of healer DPS skills only made it easier to spend fewer globals on anything but damage. You have both a simplified (read: nigh-autonomous) rotation and no longer have any ability to overly invest in damage-dealing via shared resources; all abilities save Assize are now purely for healing, while Assize is likewise still almost always used as a pure heal (again, to save GCDs so you can spend them dealing damage).

Actually, this is incorrect. Assize is used on CD unless you know AoE damage will occur within 3-5 seconds. Even then, it's still often better to simply use it for damage and little else. If you hold onto it for AoE bursts, you'll end up losing a cast which is a bigger damage loss than GCD healing, especially if you can get away with Rapture as that contributes to your Lilies, making it DPS neutral.

Other options c) disable damage abilities in raids/dungeons d) healing intensive boss fights so they actually have to heal and not play a subpar dps with healing capabilities.

I hope you fancy sitting in queues for hours on end because a change like this will all but guarantee a mass exodus of healers. I mean, they're already dominating the roulette bonuses. Regardless, no dungeon or normal mode raid is "healing intensive."

[Kaethra]

Since there's never going to be a complete agreement on this "discussion" until they either A) completely remove healer damage or B) turn healers into primarily DPS with healing capabilities, neither of which would solve the issue either, I'm just going to say this and I'm out:

Expecting every random person you come across to perform to your standards is really kind of asinine. Everybody is different and everybody has a different reason for playing the way they do. As long as they're not actively, intentionally making the run difficult then there really shouldn't be that much animosity when your run takes 15 minutes instead of 12 and no, not DPSing as healer isn't intentionally ruining your run. This applies to every class too, not just healers.

This sounds nice to say, but won't work in practice. Here's why. Lets take that healer that will use nothing but heals. The reason they are playing that way is irrelevant whether its choice, disability, knowledge, whatever. At the end it doesn't matter. Lets look at how many actions they are taking in a run and apply that to the other three players.

Chances are that will not be a successful run. We're not talking a run taking 15 minutes instead of 12. We're talking a run that will fail because it takes in excess of 90 minutes. Much less probably even completing encounters. Think about that for a moment. You take that healer who only has to heal once every 20 seconds or so and imagine if the DPS were using a few attacks every 20 seconds. Or the tank, even with the increased enmity of tank stance would likely not be able to hold off threat on even a mediocre dps or the healer that is healing them.

But for some reason, healers by the virtue of being healers are given a pass. I request an explanation of why this is. Why it is one person can play a way that if the entire group (or even half the group) sets up not only an overly protracted dungeon run, but a high chance of failure?

But this is why I hold people to a standard. The same standard I hold myself and others. It is both just and equal.

[IttyBitty]

Other options c) disable damage abilities in raids/dungeons d) healing intensive boss fights so they actually have to heal and not play a subpar dps with healing capabilities.

I mean if you want to utterly destroy the healer player base at all levels, sure, do this.

Removing healer DPS from high skill players destroys any ability to strive for excellence in their given class. Downtime can and will always be made. Especially as players gear up and get used to the fights they are participating in. What do you expect healers to do during it? Sit and wait until they're needed again? We kind of want to have fun and be engaged with the content while playing this game as well, you know. If you want a healbot, use the Trust system.

Many low skill players struggle to heal content with our utterly ridiculous healing toolkits right now. Ramping up incoming damage just makes it impossible for them. High end players will adjust...and will continue to find openings to do their DPS so long as they have the ability to do so.

Think about that for a moment. You take that healer who only has to heal once every 20 seconds or so and imagine if the DPS were using a few attacks every 20 seconds.

I actually wanted to do an experiment with this, but my friend group told me in no uncertain terms where I can stick that idea

Can't blame them for not wanting to go through an experience that's like pulling teeth.

Why it is one person can play a way that if the entire group (or even half the group) sets up not only an overly protracted dungeon run, but a high chance of failure?

The 5 sacred words of bad players echoed across the instance: "YOU DON'T PAY MY SUB"

[Avidria]

This sounds nice to say, but won't work in practice. Here's why. Lets take that healer that will use nothing but heals. The reason they are playing that way is irrelevant whether its choice, disability, knowledge, whatever. At the end it doesn't matter. Lets look at how many actions they are taking in a run and apply that to the other three players.

Chances are that will not be a successful run. We're not talking a run taking 15 minutes instead of 12. We're talking a run that will fail because it takes in excess of 90 minutes. Much less probably even completing encounters. Think about that for a moment. You take that healer who only has to heal once every 20 seconds or so and imagine if the DPS were using a few attacks every 20 seconds. Or the tank, even with the increased enmity of tank stance would likely not be able to hold off threat on even a mediocre dps or the healer that is healing them.

But for some reason, healers by the virtue of being healers are given a pass. I request an explanation of why this is. Why it is one person can play a way that if the entire group (or even half the group) sets up not only an overly protracted dungeon run, but a high chance of failure?

But this is why I hold people to a standard. The same standard I hold myself and others. It is both just and equal.

Wow that's some spicy hyperbole there. I've had players in my groups so awful I had to wonder if they were letting their cat play the game for them before, and still managed to finish the run in decent time. I've had an hour long run maybe twice ever. If a run fails, it's sure as heck not gonna be because the healer isn't dpsing lmao... only time it might matter that much is in a savage/extreme fight with a tight dps check :P which is different than dungeons by a long shot and would probably require healing a bit more often than once every 20 seconds.

[ForteNightshade]

We should enforce DPS doing THEIR job instead.
If DPS were good enough there would be no need for healers to DPS. Them doing worse or better means much more than healers DPS alone.
I have seen far more bad dps than i do healers, thats why i dont run parse anymore to save me nerves when i see dps doing less dps than me a tank...

... Except, we do? In fact, DPS players are held more accountable in this regard than healers. After all, they don't have a built in excuse to play inefficiently. No one agrees DPS who refuse to AoE are still good damage dealers. They're widely acknowledged as lazy and more frequently called out for it. There was even a thread here roughly a year or so ago where a RDM whined about Scatter spamming because "it's boring. I didn't wait in queue for twenty minutes to spam one button."

Funny how the whole thread called them out on being lazy.

Healers? We have this nonsense—where yet, again, you have a group of players willfully neglecting their kit because they simply want to heal even when the game doesn't demand said healing. We then receive a myriad of excuses or deflective arguments ranging from MP conservation to "LOL I'll focus on DPS then and let you die."

When have tanks or DPS ever been able to say...

"I don't want to use my CDs!"
"I'm an Archer not a Bard, I shouldn't have to sing!"
"Why should I have to move out of AoEs? You should just heal!"

And they not swiftly be kicked and/or made a mockery out of? Exactly. Only healers have an excuse—one people have long grown tired of. No one is asking you pull 7,000 on WHM. If, on the other hand, you're pulling 0 despite the tank and DPS doing their part properly, you're simply leeching off their work.

[zylo1010]

Y'all went ahead and had fun before I could chime in.

I hope you fancy sitting in queues for hours on end because a change like this will all but guarantee a mass exodus of healers. I mean, they're already dominating the roulette bonuses. Regardless, no dungeon or normal mode raid is "healing intensive."

I'd probably go back to healing if it became healing intensive. So I had to actually worry about being a healer instead of a subpar dps with healing capabilities.

Or even better, tie healers dps abilities to thier heals. At least slightly.