If you thought the healer DPS debate would change with the change...

[Kaethra]

Since there's never going to be a complete agreement on this "discussion" until they either A) completely remove healer damage or B) turn healers into primarily DPS with healing capabilities, neither of which would solve the issue either, I'm just going to say this and I'm out:

Expecting every random person you come across to perform to your standards is really kind of asinine. Everybody is different and everybody has a different reason for playing the way they do. As long as they're not actively, intentionally making the run difficult then there really shouldn't be that much animosity when your run takes 15 minutes instead of 12 and no, not DPSing as healer isn't intentionally ruining your run. This applies to every class too, not just healers.

This sounds nice to say, but won't work in practice. Here's why. Lets take that healer that will use nothing but heals. The reason they are playing that way is irrelevant whether its choice, disability, knowledge, whatever. At the end it doesn't matter. Lets look at how many actions they are taking in a run and apply that to the other three players.

Chances are that will not be a successful run. We're not talking a run taking 15 minutes instead of 12. We're talking a run that will fail because it takes in excess of 90 minutes. Much less probably even completing encounters. Think about that for a moment. You take that healer who only has to heal once every 20 seconds or so and imagine if the DPS were using a few attacks every 20 seconds. Or the tank, even with the increased enmity of tank stance would likely not be able to hold off threat on even a mediocre dps or the healer that is healing them.

But for some reason, healers by the virtue of being healers are given a pass. I request an explanation of why this is. Why it is one person can play a way that if the entire group (or even half the group) sets up not only an overly protracted dungeon run, but a high chance of failure?

But this is why I hold people to a standard. The same standard I hold myself and others. It is both just and equal.

[Avidria]

This sounds nice to say, but won't work in practice. Here's why. Lets take that healer that will use nothing but heals. The reason they are playing that way is irrelevant whether its choice, disability, knowledge, whatever. At the end it doesn't matter. Lets look at how many actions they are taking in a run and apply that to the other three players.

Chances are that will not be a successful run. We're not talking a run taking 15 minutes instead of 12. We're talking a run that will fail because it takes in excess of 90 minutes. Much less probably even completing encounters. Think about that for a moment. You take that healer who only has to heal once every 20 seconds or so and imagine if the DPS were using a few attacks every 20 seconds. Or the tank, even with the increased enmity of tank stance would likely not be able to hold off threat on even a mediocre dps or the healer that is healing them.

But for some reason, healers by the virtue of being healers are given a pass. I request an explanation of why this is. Why it is one person can play a way that if the entire group (or even half the group) sets up not only an overly protracted dungeon run, but a high chance of failure?

But this is why I hold people to a standard. The same standard I hold myself and others. It is both just and equal.

Wow that's some spicy hyperbole there. I've had players in my groups so awful I had to wonder if they were letting their cat play the game for them before, and still managed to finish the run in decent time. I've had an hour long run maybe twice ever. If a run fails, it's sure as heck not gonna be because the healer isn't dpsing lmao... only time it might matter that much is in a savage/extreme fight with a tight dps check :P which is different than dungeons by a long shot and would probably require healing a bit more often than once every 20 seconds.

[Joven]

This sounds nice to say, but won't work in practice. Here's why. Lets take that healer that will use nothing but heals. The reason they are playing that way is irrelevant whether its choice, disability, knowledge, whatever. At the end it doesn't matter. Lets look at how many actions they are taking in a run and apply that to the other three players.

Chances are that will not be a successful run. We're not talking a run taking 15 minutes instead of 12. We're talking a run that will fail because it takes in excess of 90 minutes. Much less probably even completing encounters. Think about that for a moment. You take that healer who only has to heal once every 20 seconds or so and imagine if the DPS were using a few attacks every 20 seconds. Or the tank, even with the increased enmity of tank stance would likely not be able to hold off threat on even a mediocre dps or the healer that is healing them.

But for some reason, healers by the virtue of being healers are given a pass. I request an explanation of why this is. Why it is one person can play a way that if the entire group (or even half the group) sets up not only an overly protracted dungeon run, but a high chance of failure?

But this is why I hold people to a standard. The same standard I hold myself and others. It is both just and equal.

I said I was out, but since you requested an explanation I guess I'll provide one:

I've run all three healers through a variety of groups and I can guarantee that every bad/long run I've had wasn't because I wasn't DPSing. Be it tanks thinking they want to pull big and not being able to hold it or not using mitigation, to the tanks/DPS standing in everything on top of trying large pulls. I've had runs where I've barely had to heal the whole time and could DPS to my hearts content and I've had what was supposed to be an easy run turn into a fight to keep everyone alive because the aforementioned tanks/DPS. It all depends on the group you get.

So why do healers get a pass when other classes are expected to perform? Because that is the nature of the beast. Everyone has a designated criteria and as long as those criteria are met then there shouldn't be a problem. Tanks hold aggro, DPS burns down the enemy and healers keep everyone alive. That's just how it is. You don't have to like it and you don't have to agree with it, but complaining about it isn't going to solve anything unless there is a major paradigm shift, which I don't see ever happening.

I only have one standard that I hold any group to: perform your role. I don't care if you don't go above and beyond as long as you perform your role adequately enough to get us through a run in one go. That's all I ask, because I know I'm not above failing at something despite however much experience I may have.