If you thought the healer DPS debate would change with the change...

[HyoMinPark]

To clarify, my perspective is that if a job requires more skill to play,eg. AST/SCH should do more DPS/rDPS assuming they are being played properly.

It's ok, if the harder to play jobs, are rewarded with more DPS/rDPS etc for proper play.

If people are not happy that WHM is not doing enough DPS/rDPS as a healer, they should improve their skills and play AST/SCH instead.

Note, I'm not saying WHM should be significantly weaker than AST/SCH but as a WHM, I wouldn't be too fussed if an AST/SCH is putting out ~500-1000 DPS/rDPS more.

This 'balancing' of healers from my perspective is misguided and has led us to 5.0 AST/SCH.

I'd rather them all be relatively balanced. That will be the only way for one to not be left in the dust - which has been the main issue since Creator (mainly between AST and WHM, as they compete with one another more than AST and SCH because of how inefficient Nocturnal sect is compared to SCH's kit). Back then it was a combination of +10% AOE Balance (lol) and AST MP economy versus WHM's no raid buffs and terrible MP management. In early SB, WHM actually pulled ahead until the Malefic recast change in 4.3, when AST started to pull ahead after not clipping every other GCD for card things (their personal damage shot up, which was the advantage WHM had over them). After the change to allow CU to instantly apply rather than wait for a server tick in 4.4 - and with the overall design of some Alphascape fights requiring a lot of movement - AST pulled ahead again.

If WHM is putting out 7,000 pDPS, then AST/SCH need to have enough rDPS to compensate if their pDPS is scaled lower (which I honestly don't mind, but that's not currently the case with AST and WHM - WHM slaughters AST on both healing and damage fronts). So they can have lower personal damage, but their utility has to make up the discrepancy and essentially balance the jobs within the role. That way, taking a WHM over an AST won't be like Alphascape, where you were actually hurting your raid group by not bringing an AST (because WHM's personal damage did not exceed AST's pDPS + rDPS, and AST's QoL buffs to Malefic and CU made them better overall; especially in movement-heavy fights like Final Omega).

If AST/SCH put out 500~1,000 more rDPS than WHM, they will always be the better option numerically speaking.

[Awha]

Personally I wish they added some depth when it comes to damage abilities given to healers. I get aoe rotations are basic across the board for the most part, but healer single target dps rotation is boring. I will still dps when needed as healer but wish it had some depth.

[Vercinotrix]

Honestly I don't care if a healer doesn't do dmg, just queue up and don't let us die is all I ask. 20 min queues as a tank is a bummer.

Also healers that don't want a group to mandate them do dmg hit me up I need someone for fast queues pls.

[SturmChurro]

Why exactly do healers not want to throw a little bit of dps here and there? It would would be literally pressing one or two buttons.

Before any lectures, white mage is one of my most played and one of the three classes I have to 80. I dps on it. It was obviously meant to dps a bit since it has a dps ability that gets procced. The class is literally designed to dps.

[zylo1010]

TBH I'm still waiting for a more healing intensive fight. The problem now is healing while being a healers main priority, doesn't need to be done as often as other MMOs. So the people saying healers shouldn't dps aren't wrong or lazy. They just need a more healing intensive version of dungeons and raids. The new mp cap does seem to make it slightly more difficult to keep dps up. But it was also stated in an interview with Yoshi that they do not take healer dps into balancing raids and stuff. So it's free dps, meaning it isn't completely necessary.

If your having a problem with a healer not dpsing to carry you, level one yourself and see just how difficult it can be to keep people alive when everyone halfa$$es fights.

My old healing motto "I can't heal stupid..."

Also why I won't play a healer here.

[Enla]

Why exactly do healers not want to throw a little bit of dps here and there? It would would be literally pressing one or two buttons.

Before any lectures, white mage is one of my most played and one of the three classes I have to 80. I dps on it. It was obviously meant to dps a bit since it has a dps ability that gets procced. The class is literally designed to dps.

There's a couple MMO's out there where healers can't really sneak in damage at all that people hopped from to play FF14. So in that case I definitely understand the inability to switch proverbial wires when a lack of healing for DPS meant your party was deader than a doorknob. As for people who come in to this as their first MMO, there could be a variety of smaller reasons. It could be a pop culture thing, healers only healing is pretty prevalent in pop culture media, or it could be nerves. The latter of which I understand to a degree as nerves definitely kept me from engaging in as much damage as I could when I finish came to this game in 2.4 and picked up WHM. Definitely not helped by my FC lead at the time taking great pleasure in 'putting the healers through their paces' at random which, while looking back was invaluable to help me learn, it definitely didn't help my nerves calm down. Only time and experience did that; and a healthy dose of salt that built with each death that was pinned on me unfairly.

Now? I try to be forgiving of other healers who were in that same position, but I draw the line at not even keeping up your dots when there's downtime. And there's /going/ to be downtime. Even when a tank was triple pulling without cooldowns and making me scream in Qitana Revel I still had time to at least put out a dot or two.

[TwistedTea]

If AST/SCH put out 500~1,000 more rDPS than WHM, they will always be the better option numerically speaking.

I guess this is where my perspective differs.

As long as WHM can clear all content, to me, it doesn't matter if it's behind AST/SCH.

I think that jobs which are more complex to play, should be 'rewarded' with more DPS/rDPS when played properly.

If that means WHM is benched due to the meta, that's fine with me.

In addition, would prefer if SE went the other direction with 'balancing'; have some jobs which are more complex and 'reward' the player accordingly when played well.

Also, just because a 'complex' job might have more DPS/rDPS does not mean everyone can play that job well (e.g.: BLM/SMN).

In such cases, it's better to take a non-meta job which does lower DPS/rDPS but the player is better at playing that job.

[Shurrikhan]

Someone didn't even bother reading before making a toxic reply.

If you did bother to read, then you would have understood that the OP isn't dpsing because they are HEALING. You know, their JOB? They aren't being idle.

That I read a false dilemma does not require me to believe it or respond to its every point. But let me clarify, then, since you seem not to have healed yet this expansion.

There is no need to "focus" on healing to an extent that would at all fetter your ability to spend some globals dealing damage between heals, nor does damage require any attention that would draw away from healing. This aspect of difficulty quite simply no longer exists to any noticeable amount.

If the OP is being called out, as per their words, for not dealing damage, they're idling or overhealing. There would be no discussion among the OP's group if there wasn't something visible -- and obviously so -- in their actions. You can idle or be very obviously overhealing; that is literally all anyone can see and the only things that would indicate to anyone that you're "not dealing damage."

Your modern dps rotation is "spam [1] for ST" or "spam [2] for AoE". Every 21/30 seconds, hit [3] instead and you get to double-weave without uptime cost as a bonus. There is no point at which that distracts you from healing. There is no conflict of attention, now more than ever.

The removal of healer DPS skills only made it easier to spend fewer globals on anything but damage. You have both a simplified (read: nigh-autonomous) rotation and no longer have any ability to overly invest in damage-dealing via shared resources; all abilities save Assize are now purely for healing, while Assize is likewise still almost always used as a pure heal (again, to save GCDs so you can spend them dealing damage).

tl;dr: I can read about their abnormal difficulties without accepting them as necessarily true of all players or making light of players being expected to do what they can whatever their role, rather than drawing the line from their role titles. To anyone who's played a healer at all decently this expansion, short of perhaps intentional griefing on the part of their tank and dps, the post amounts solely to a roundabout and incongruous jab at role-flexibility -- a one liner. So, yes, I'll respond accordingly.

"Even with the removal of a large chunk of the healer DPS spells and abilities, the player community is still demanding, not asking, demanding that healers still DPS" is the thesis line in keeping with the title, whatever the little anecdotes attached, and the response to that should be along the lines of "Well, of course." Just like Cleric Stance before, the changes are there to facilitate healer dps. When something is facilitated, expect it to become more, not less, expected.

[Joven]

Since there's never going to be a complete agreement on this "discussion" until they either A) completely remove healer damage or B) turn healers into primarily DPS with healing capabilities, neither of which would solve the issue either, I'm just going to say this and I'm out:

Expecting every random person you come across to perform to your standards is really kind of asinine. Everybody is different and everybody has a different reason for playing the way they do. As long as they're not actively, intentionally making the run difficult then there really shouldn't be that much animosity when your run takes 15 minutes instead of 12 and no, not DPSing as healer isn't intentionally ruining your run. This applies to every class too, not just healers.

[zylo1010]

Since there's never going to be a complete agreement on this "discussion" until they either A) completely remove healer damage or B) turn healers into primarily DPS with healing capabilities, neither of which would solve the issue either, I'm just going to say this and I'm out:

Expecting every random person you come across to perform to your standards is really kind of asinine. Everybody is different and everybody has a different reason for playing the way they do. As long as they're not actively, intentionally making the run difficult then there really shouldn't be that much animosity when your run takes 15 minutes instead of 12 and no, not DPSing as healer isn't intentionally ruining your run. This applies to every class too, not just healers.

Other options c) disable damage abilities in raids/dungeons d) healing intensive boss fights so they actually have to heal and not play a subpar dps with healing capabilities.