The state of Monk in Shadowbringers (long)

[Sora_Oathkeeper]

fflogs isn't a good measurement of general population, since the majority of users are high end raiders focused on performance in high end content. Regardless of entertainment value, if mnk had consistently higher dps, with similar difficulty to pull it off, it would have a lot of fflog users.

Yeah I know fflogs isn't a great metric, however it's the only widely available resource in gauging job usage across current end game trials - which I'd argue is what jobs should be balanced and designed around, where rotations actually matter as well as DPS. While MNK's dps is high it just feels 'meh' to play unfortunately. In my opinion anyway, I'd like to see some change in the Monk core rotation, which is why I think the TK rotation was generally well received albeit not intentional. Many have wanted to use TK more often since it's inception. I really hope something can change with Monk in the coming patches, because i'm sure more people will start leaving it behind once they level other jobs that feel more rewarding to play.

[silverdragontyr]

I have actively tried to use TK just for some variation even if it hurts my DPS and it just doesn't work. Been using SSS any time I move away or back towards from a boss to maintain GL and again variation.

TK however, there is no use short of perfect timing right before a boss moves away for a long period or perfect timing before they die. Do it too early, you lose DPS from stack loss. Too late and you lose DPS as extra potency is pointless. Using PB, it's more damage and generally better maintenance to just use PB for DK/BS damage.

[Shurrikhan]

That was such a wasted opportunity, the one class that needs positionals for every single target skill yet they decided to add that new mechanic to DRG, what were they thinking, if anything 6SS (not with the same effect ofc) could have been our 4th combo skill, only available after having successfully used the previous 3.

But that would make SSS nearly impossible to use at the times most aided by its actual effects?

We don't need complexity for the sake of complexity, especially in so convoluted or self-constricting a manner. SSS is a tool with a purpose that it currently performs reasonably well. To make it available only a third of the time would break that capacity.

[KanameYuuki]

But that would make SSS nearly impossible to use at the times most aided by its actual effects?

We don't need complexity for the sake of complexity, especially in so convoluted or self-constricting a manner. SSS is a tool with a purpose that it currently performs reasonably well. To make it available only a third of the time would break that capacity.

I wonder if Square should have just reworked TK to have the same effect as SSS, I keep reading mostly positive impressions about it, besides asking for it to be oGCD.

[Shurrikhan]

I wonder if Square should have just reworked TK to have the same effect as SSS, I keep reading mostly positive impressions about it, besides asking for it to be oGCD.

I'd prefer to just have back RoW and thereby my TK rotation. We got nothing in their place with their removal. I guess they took (pre-Greased-Lightning-on-RoW, let us note) outcry of "better nothing than Tackle Mastery" both literally and achronistically.

[silverdragontyr]

People need to stop wishing for TK combo back, at least how it was. They have clearly stated they didn't like it, it wasn't intended and this change reflects that. If you want high burst damage go Sam. We should focus more on how to make Mnk enjoyable and less punishing. A couple of oGCDs is one good idea. Incorporating Chakra a bit more is another good.

What don't people like about Mnk?

1 • Greased Lightning is hard to maintain, equates to most of our damage and is hard to generate back up. Ways added to maintain it are only at the very last levels currently.
Possible solutions - Lower Anatman level, Add a skill that instantly generates GL to max current level, allow SSS to extend GL timer by 10 seconds without a cap.

2 • Mnk feels too slow for a class based around speed due to RoF and new gear stat spread.
Possible Solutions - Remove slowdown from RoF, add an ability that further reduces GCD, Allow GF4 on all fists and give each fists a unique combat ability ex (FoF dmg, FoW GCD speed, FoE Crit rate)

3 • Mnk feels boring and is a relatively simple combo rotation now.
Possible Solutions - Add more oGCD abilities. Add more combo potentials with unique effects based on combo order/stance, add more varied ways to fight like different Chakra abilities.

4 • Tornado Kick as it stands is a wasted ability. It's damage does not offset losing your GL stacks.
Possible solutions - Increase it's potency and/or make more ways to combo it like 100% Crit buff on next hit. Remove eating GL and make oGCD ability. Make it a Disengage tool.


There is what, 5 threads now on Mnk in this forum? It's clear there are issues and a lot of the complaints seem to bolster the sam problems.

Mnk feels slow. There is no longer enough varied moves to keep gameplay interesting for extended periods. GL is core to our damage and hard to maintain, resulting in harsh punishments.

[guardin]

I don't remotely consider these problems. I liked the pacing variance brought by RoF (or at least certainly didn't mind it and would have taken it over a smaller damage buff as to come at no cost or potency losses elsewhere), and I liked the 4.2 Tornado Kick rotations precisely because TK was something that demanded synergetic use of surrounding skills.

ROF slowing us down is the biggest insult to monks. i get it, some people cant handle the speed (its still not that fast even with gl4 if you ever played other mmos or action games) but there are other jobs for them. We need speed we want speed. 1.0 gcd would be a perfect replacement for rof slow down. Just a full burst of power and speed in an all out mode. Do that and id have no complaints with monk. TK is fine. sure it can be tweaked but ROF is the biggest problem

[guardin]

You said something that I think has been an elephant in the room for a long time. I'm going to compare to Overwatch, don't worry it'll make sense.

You mention they want to attract more casual or newer players with these changes and I think that's fair assumption for changes for a lot of classes. Sch losing a lot of it's damage ect. In Overwatch, there is a large cast of characters or "classes" if you will. Some simply ARE more advanced, technical and harder to play. It's a nature of their character. They don't dumb those characters down. Mnk by the nature of being a speed and combo based job, is kind of a technical class. The FFXIV team has been trying to keep all jobs easy to approach so everyone can enjoy them.

FFXIV Class development team if you're reading this... Please stop this.

Accept some classes will simply be harder to play. It's in the nature of having an increasing amount of classes to keep them varied. Accept Mnk isn't a job you can keep fun while maintaining a "simple" play style. Let us go fast as lightning. "Oh but then you can't double weave skills." You absolutely can. There is NO downside to speeding the Mnk up. If your argument is "If your GCD is too fast then any time not attacking to use other skills is wasted." That's part of what makes Mnk fun. Striving to be the fastest you can with muscle memory, finding good combos and and optimizing your rotation. You balance maybe letting that GCD sit a moment for using a buff that increases all further WS Crit/Dmg ect for the next 15 seconds.

When 2.0 first came out and you told us about the new Mnk, you said it would play like a fighting game. Bring that back. Give us great potential. Make Mnk skill ceiling the freaking moon. Give us buffs to manage. Give us speed. Let us be The Dragon.

It will make Mnk hard to approach for new comers. Yeah, yeah it will. Accept not all classes will be easy to play. Accept some classes will have a lot of depth and take a lot of practice and I guarentee you your fans, especially Mnk fans will be happier for it.

*standing ovation

THIS! if SE reads NOTHING else about monk DOES nothing else for monk; just focus on what this above post said and monk will be what it was almost meant to be!

The adrenaline rush of going fast. Each rotation getting a.5 gcd reduction and it keeps going and going until you mess up. *drools*

even without adding more ogcd, the speed from that alone will make monk feel like the fighting action game they promised!

[Shurrikhan]

ROF slowing us down is the biggest insult to monks. i get it, some people cant handle the speed (its still not that fast even with gl4 if you ever played other mmos or action games) but there are other jobs for them. We need speed we want speed. 1.0 gcd would be a perfect replacement for rof slow down. Just a full burst of power and speed in an all out mode. Do that and id have no complaints with monk. TK is fine. sure it can be tweaked but ROF is the biggest problem

I played at 2.9k+ SkS. I could "handle the speed" just fine. I liked RoF's speed variance and the flexed rotations and sync requirements it forced all the more because I could.

But, by all means, let's make RoF a flat 6-7% damage buff instead so we don't have to occasionally rework our rotation or plan for new SkS breakpoints! Surely that'd feel nice and impactful!

RoF's slow-down is fine. I can only expect that you're not running enough speed in the first place to be able to flex your rotation for it -- in which case, learn to better handle your speed?

On the other hand, TK being a button which, optimally, you use precisely once in precisely one fight is not "fine".

[reyre]

I played at 2.9k+ SkS. I could "handle the speed" just fine. I liked RoF's speed variance and the flexed rotations and sync requirements it forced all the more because I could.

But, by all means, let's make RoF a flat 6-7% damage buff instead so we don't have to occasionally rework our rotation or plan for new SkS breakpoints! Surely that'd feel nice and impactful!

RoF's slow-down is fine. I can only expect that you're not running enough speed in the first place to be able to flex your rotation for it -- in which case, learn to better handle your speed?

On the other hand, TK being a button which, optimally, you use precisely once in precisely one fight is not "fine".

That is a pretty bland argument, however your taste aside there is no logical reason why a buff has such a negative impact on a players ability to use its rotation, and lets be clear RoF is just discount B4B, also "running enough speed"? playing at 2.9k+ Sks really does nothing, after a certain point the gain is minimal at best so that number doesnt tell me how fast you were but how ignorant on the class inner workings you are, having a high SkS is not always the best since you know GL is a thing because after a point it literally does nothing. Either way the only reason that justified the existance of RoF slow down is no longer there ( Double weaving) since now we only have 3 oGCD one of which is hidden behind a very incoherent RNG. Either way speed variance is not a viable thing for this class since its whole point (job quest, descripition and core mechanics) is to go fast, all the time, not go fast some times. Monk hits fast not hard. Anywho the clear lack of direction is FF14 devs fault so i blame them.